Common Mistakes I see people making

edited January 23 in Community Guides
I passed level 50, I'm working on 5*ing all the rift lord maps, and I'm still seeing people making some mistakes that seem to me to be mistakes made early, before you learn the game. I'm also starting this thread in hopes that some people will post some simple mistakes that I might be making unknowingly, but here are the ones I see being made even at high levels. This is mostly for people joining the Q for random matches.

  • Being too low a level for a map; this isn't just account level but trap level. Master and Rift Lord cannot be 5 starred the same level you have access to them. If you join a Q at this point you'll be dragging down your team and preventing a 5 star rating unless your partners can carry you.
  • Not pressing Z quickly; The goal is always 5 stars, just because its your first attempt doesn't mean its everyone else's first attempt. Go for 5 stars until an enemy actually hits your rift.
  • Using the same trap a row multiple times; This is most common with flip traps, though I've seen it with steam vents and push traps as well. The best kill boxes have the traps working together to maximize damage. Lead with CC (Tar or V. Tar), after that alternate damaging traps that are effective against different things, so that nothing overwhelms your killbox. The same trap over and over is never optimal, and rarely effective.
  • Don't put multiple flip traps in a row; Yes this a repeat but it's the most common mistake and the worst one I see. Flip traps in particular are the worst trap until the stunning accumulator part is put on it. Then you have to put damage behind it!!! Nearly every match with a pit, I see 6-8 flip traps in a row, no CC in front so the runners mostly run past the flips to quickly, no damage after so the large minions just laugh and laugh.
  • Don't just place a random trap; one person should be in charge of a killbox, if you don't see the pattern to the box or cannot keep the pattern, don't place anything. All your doing is lowering the killboxes damage and efficiency. Conversely don't build killboxes willy-nilly (such as by throwing down a billion flip traps), have an idea in your head how to build it so that you maximize efficiency and damage. My first attempt at Rift Lord Banquet hall, the other 2 people I was with, build in the same pattern as me and had the same strategy. We took over first place on the leaderboards from that (others have since beat our score), I cannot stress enough how understanding what the other people on your team are trying to do with their killbox improves your team.
  • Everybody bringing the same guardians, and not having the ones to cover all the home slots; Look at the Guardians that others are bringing, try to bring what's needed the most. If you don't have many guardians, select yours quickly so that the others on your team can fill in what's needed. Guardians at home are a quick source of healing and mana, and usually quicker to get to than the rift. So placing one that enemies won't track by can still be useful.
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Comments

  • I mean, on the first point, a lot of people 5*'d all the rift lord maps with low tier traps and lower 40s account level (some even under 40). Next, in a PuG group, you should be in the mind set of altering YOUR strategy as need be. If someone's making a killbox unlike yours, work yours into it. Don't expect everyone to bow down to your immense knowledge of the game and ask you to hold their hand because they're too incompetent to use the toilet.

    That said, do occasionally see people placing multiple brims side by side, probably the most common actual mistake I see. After explaining they don't actually stack, the problem is easily fixed and we move on.

    Also that Napta sprayers don't actually do damage on their own, but rather boost fire damage taken. Less common, but still see it every so often.
  • 1. Low Level - I agree to some extent, especially on Rift Lord where having a Low Account Level makes it extremely easy to die due to low HP and high damage output from enemy mobs. However, while 5 starring may be the end goal, I do not expect matchmaker games to get 5 stars on a regularly basis. I personally aim for 4 stars, and if we get 3 stars, I'll be content. (Note: In higher tiers, such as Master and Rift Lord, I do expect players to be more experienced and have a general idea of what they are doing. If one is clueless, let everyone else know!)
    Players have to start somewhere, and if "noobs" are frowned upon playing on higher difficulties, how are they going to "Gear Up" and prepare for it?

    2. Hitting "Z" Early - I somewhat disagree here. In matchmaker, I'll hit "Z" when I'm done with traps or do it instantly if it seems like we are attempting a 5 star run. My matchmaking method is to hit 4 stars with a perfect rift, if we happen to get par time, even better. 5 Starring efforts should be done either solo or in premade groups and not in matchmade games. One can try for 5 stars, but don't expect it and don't force others to adapt to that playstyle. Matchmaking is for casual and "for fun" play, not competitive perfect runs. Also, Par Time is rather lenient on most maps, so there is no real rush unless one always reaches the countdown during each break.

    3. Repeating Traps - Somewhat agree here. I personally prefer a variety of traps (my classic ground setup is Brimstone, Spike, Tar) but on occasion Trap Spam is viable (mass Spikes) and that trap is the only trap that is actually upgraded. However, variety does tend to win the day and I would suggest players to alternate traps. A "checkerbox" setup can work well.
    A note on repeating traps. Brimstone do not stack with each other. Please do not place Brimstone right next to each other (in the direction the mobs are going, side by side is fine) and leave at least 2 "normal trap" spaces open before placing down a new Brimstone at the third. The only exception is if one is killing mobs right at the Brimstone spot, but even then other setups are more effective.

    4. Flip Trap Repeaters - Be mindful of your strategy when using these traps. For "fire and forget" alternate between the physic trap and a damage trap. If one is babysitting the location, spamming them may work as long as the player handles troublesome mobs such as runners or large enemies.
    The exception to this is The Falling Folly, where Push Trap spam and Big Game Hunters win the day provided there is enough defense at the rift proper.

    5. Placing Random Traps - If you want to contribute to a killbox, make sure you have "allow allies to sell traps = on." Seriously, nothing is more frustrating when planning out a killbox (especially in a lane one is covering) and another player puts down a trap that ruins the setup. Honestly, allies selling traps should default to on instead of off.

    6. Guardian Placement - Often times I see players who go throughout the entire match without placing down any guardians. This is understable if a killbox is not being used and mobs are redirected elsewhere, but in maps such as Unchained Fortress, there is no real excuse to not place down your guardian. If a Guardian dies, put a new one down to replace it.

    * * * * *

    Here is an extra tip from me.

    S1. If in doubt, Damage over Barricades - Some maps have a variety of methods to do killboxes, such as using funneling all spawns on Crogon Keep or the Wall to a single location. While clever, normal games are not done in Endless mode and all that money spent on Barricades could have been spent on damaging traps. Also, players may not be familiar with this method of play which can lead to miscommunication when playing the map. (The exception is Temple Graveyard where funnelling enemies is likely the norm. The map is built for funneling and requires "minimal barricades.")
    So, in general, each person "claims" a lane and builds a killbox. Combine lanes when possible, such as the left two spawns on Crogon Keep or the top two on Frostbite. Build killboxes in appropriate locations, this may be right next to the spawn or in a good chokepoint. Doing this will not only make the match go by faster, but also more enjoyable as one can watch the incredible machine do its work.
  • On the other hand, yes while the brimstones don't stack, they do reset the dot damage, so putting many in a row is not entirely useless... My point being, there are some players who get into a frenzy when they see that... and I'm like "chill dude" it's okay xD
  • 1. Communication - before and during the game. Use the chat function. Ask if the other people are trying to 5 star it or just complete the map safely. 
    Ask people if you can sell a trap and maybe explain why. If you disagree with something say why you disagree. Say if you want a specific lane at the start. 

    2. Make traps sellable. Unless somebody is being a troll, there isn't really an excuse for not allowing other to sell your traps. Especially if you move to another lane. Be aware of your teams mates have higher tier traps than you have. Leave them space. 

    3. Don't double brimstone - it doesn't stack! See the common theme between these posts? Naphtha is only good around fire traps, don't spam it everywhere and definitely don't double up naphtha!

    4. Don't fight on top of important barricades. They get damaged by minions and will get destroyed. 

    5. Know your hero role. If you have a fast ranged hero such as Max, take out those pesky runners that have made it past your melee heroes.

    6. Share the barricade work load. Don't make one character spend all their cash on barricades at the start. Each player should place one or two where required. This helps everybody generate coin and leads to better kill boxes in each lane. 
  • Agree with allot of these statement accept proper fliptrap chaining on bridges. I have lvl 7 flip traps with light pressure plates so the large minions don't even activate them.  putting a two row chain of them on bridges that toss them off the map is a great method when steam vents won't push them off the bridged area. I agree though if its chained in areas that don't instant kill the mobs its generally a bad idea.
  • @sire Take your falling folly example, every type of minion comes through both doors, do you think push traps are always the best against every type of minion? I personally use arrow walls and grinders on that map. The grinders soak up the loose runners, and help when I'm overloaded with medium enemies, while the arrow walls help with large minions and bosses. Push traps are not so good against large minions and bosses, or against runners if you can't bunch them up. So why not throw in some other traps to focus on those?
  • edited January 23
    @yobbobear I like your notes as well, I would add know the other hero's roles as well. Don't expect Bionka or Stinkeye to travel across half the map to handle an unstable rift. You might have to travel further to get to it, but Bionka and Stinkeye are too slow to even consider going at them.

     I do see a bit of doubling brimstone and always hear the same thing "they stagger getting triggered" no, no they don't. Brimstone doesn't put out enough damage fast enough to stop the people that walk on it from getting to the next brimstone before dying. Double brimstone persistently goes off on the same minions.
  • edited January 23
    Agree with allot of these statement accept proper fliptrap chaining on bridges. I have lvl 7 flip traps with light pressure plates so the large minions don't even activate them.  putting a two row chain of them on bridges that toss them off the map is a great method when steam vents won't push them off the bridged area. I agree though if its chained in areas that don't instant kill the mobs its generally a bad idea.
    That plan ignores going at large minions? I use stunning accumulator on my flips so that when a large minion walks on them, then steps on floor spikes next, the floor spikes do double damage. IMO this is more efficient than ignoring large minions.

    I guess I'm not saying you couldn't plan for large minions later, but why if you can plan for them now, as well as medium minions. Throw a V. Tar in front of the flips and that setup will handle runners as well.
  • edited January 23
    @Statboy

    On The Falling Folly, I spam Push Traps on the long route and use Big Game Hunters (specifically Arrow Wall) to handle the bosses and Moneybags. Sure, the Push Trap won't be that effective when the big mobs start coming along, but the utility they provide against those accursed Earth Elementals more than makes up for it.

    On the short route it's just the normal killbox, with maybe one push trap on that column to push mobs into the lower, longer route.

    Now, The Falling Folly is the exception to the rule where I believe (and tested, it works) Push Trap spam works. On other maps, a more proper setup is preferable. For example, on RL's Gates of Thuricvod, (Still trying to 5-star this. It is the hardest map for me to solo, more so than Temple Graveyard) I'll alternate between Push Traps and Wall Blades for the top two side lanes. That seems to work fairly well, but I still need to catch some of the stragglers because trap cap and I can't be everywhere at once.
  • edited January 24
    Statboy said:
    Agree with allot of these statement accept proper fliptrap chaining on bridges. I have lvl 7 flip traps with light pressure plates so the large minions don't even activate them.  putting a two row chain of them on bridges that toss them off the map is a great method when steam vents won't push them off the bridged area. I agree though if its chained in areas that don't instant kill the mobs its generally a bad idea.
    That plan ignores going at large minions? I use stunning accumulator on my flips so that when a large minion walks on them, then steps on floor spikes next, the floor spikes do double damage. IMO this is more efficient than ignoring large minions.

    I guess I'm not saying you couldn't plan for large minions later, but why if you can plan for them now, as well as medium minions. Throw a V. Tar in front of the flips and that setup will handle runners as well.
    There are some maps, like frostbite RL, where some sides only spawn the larger flippable guys where a string of flip traps is the most efficient way to take all of them out. I usually just put a bunch of flips at bottom right and I never have to go down there except for the boss wave, and by then all the other lanes are fairly self sustaining as well. 

    On some other maps where there are some large minions mixed in I still like to chain flip traps because it still flips a good number of the smaller minions out and the big ones die to something else later on.  You only have so many spots that can flip stuff out so I say use them for flipping if most of the mobs are flippable (tm).
  • edited January 24
    @iAndy I decided to test this. I ran the first wave of Rift Lord Frostbite 3 times. The first wave has only 2 large minions, the rest are flippable. The setup takes place entirely on the bridge using 12 traps each time. Traps did the only damage, after taking the screenshot I retreated behind the rift so I wouldn't interact with the enemy minions. Here is each setup with links to pictures if you like.

    1st: double row's of V.Tar>Flip>Floor Spikes>Floor Spikes>Flip>Floor Spikes
    http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/97226460692548738/69C25BCA436F8B9BDA67413D9777BC6DFED0A9F8/

    2nd: 12 Floor spikes in 2 Columns
    http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/97226460692549512/B6B4F76AC3D91420D1B98B671AF8DAF04F91507E/

    3rd: 12 Flip Traps in 2 Columns
    http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/97226460692550000/F9B2D775896AE2B8FE099BAE4B9B03E43BFD2421/

    Here's how my traps where upgraded
    V. Tar-Tier 4- Mana Siphon
    Floor Spikes- Tier 7- Kinetic Resonator- Double Spring
    Flip Trap- Tier 7- Stunning Accumulator- Double Spring

    Results:
    1st attempt with mixed traps: Won the round with 9 Rift Points remaining
    2nd attempt with all Floor Spikes: Lost with one medium minion still to enter the rift
    3rd attempt with all Flips: Won with 2 Rift Points remaining

    The mixed traps was clearly the winner. There were 3 rift points difference between all floor spikes and all flip traps, and 7 rift points difference between all flips and mixed traps. This isn't the first experiment in this either, if you remember the first two weekly challenges they took place on the Thuricvod maps (very flip/push friendly). Yet they were much easier once we stopped using flips and just used floor spikes. Chaining flips always looks good on paper, but never works out as well in practice. No matter how much the map or minion's might seem to cater to it. I can't remember that far back, but I think I 5* one of those weekly maps with you, and we didn't use any flip's.
  • edited January 24
    Theirs your mistake you never put on light weight trigger on your flip traps. Also you never did a test of 12 steam vents. I've done that map multiple times using purely steam vents and on the first wave, only 2 medium sized soldiers, 2 small sized soldiers, and the 2 large bears get past. Also, despite the general consensus you will find on boards and in game, having light weight trigger on spring traps/steam vents is by far leaps and bounds better than not having it. Adding that part to your flip traps will make a monumental difference in killing those small and medium sized minions. Large minions die in mere seconds anyways from your hero.
  • edited January 24
    @Zarcos Lightweight triggers would guarantee that large minions and bosses aren't affected, instantly making flips less useful. Stunning Accumulator is the only part that is needed, its +100% debuff of large minions so that floor spikes next can kill them is incredibly powerful. As I've stated before, I have set up traps where Swifty was running once so that he triggered a flip, then triggered 2 wall chargers, and a shock trap at the same to insta kill him. Lightweight triggers would make trips less useful, because as I stated earlier, without V.Tar in front runner's don't group up enough for flip's to be effective against them and you're just letting large minions and bosses go through with nothing. V. Tar, Flip with stunning, then damage is effective against everything, anything that changes that makes it less effective. Flips with lightweight trigger are only effective against medium minions.

    We've tried this in game enough to see it hold true as well.
  • edited January 24
    I think I see the issue. People are trying to increase the killing power of flip traps, when flips are far from the best trap for doing that. However flip's have the highest potential for debuffing of any trap. I used to use flips as a killing trap and thought they were terrible at it, even made a post stating such, once somebody told me to try stunning accumulator I switched to using them as a debuff and my killbox's improved dramatically for it.

    TL:DR Flips are the best debuffing trap in OMDU, and never more than average at killing.
  • edited January 24
    Sire said:
    @Statboy
    "...Gates of Thuricvod, (Still trying to 5-star this. It is the hardest map for me to solo, more so than Temple Graveyard) I'll alternate between Push Traps and Wall Blades for the top two side lanes. That seems to work fairly well, but I still need to catch some of the stragglers because trap cap and I can't be everywhere at once."

    Might I recommend Haymakers?  I put three in center (one smack against the entrance and the other two catching the first's)...also I tend to use four, sometimes five staggered out along the sides.  Not much gets through them as they like to toss the mobs into the fire.  Some survive to the center, and some later survive to approach the rift, but I know what wave that happens on.  I also use haymakers on the  SouthEast killbox which I direct both the south entrances towards.  Until I started using them, I struggled with the map.  In both the North and South killbox I also throw down Ice Vents to best control the haymakers messy rag doll effect.

    Just a suggestion.





    Post edited by Sinalot on
  • Statboy said:
    "@iAndy I decided to test this. I ran the first wave of Rift Lord Frostbite 3 times. The first wave has only 2 large minions, the rest are flippable. The setup takes place entirely on the bridge using 12 traps each time. Traps did the only damage, after taking the screenshot I retreated behind the rift so I wouldn't interact with the enemy minions. Here is each setup with links to pictures if you like."

    Thats the wrong spot.  I do the same thing as @iAndy...but on the lower Right side as looking at the map.  The side with the "Eye" guardian.  The flip traps do not get everything, but they certainly take out a great deal.  I get most of the stragglers cleaned up after the flips with well placed brimstones and perhaps a couple wall blades in the eye guardian area if I feel like it.  There is a wave, maybe two at the end that typically 3 mobs make it to the southern center guardian spot.  But, as I am normally standing there at any rate, its no big deal.
  • @Statboy I don't see how you could "need" flip traps to provide a debuff. Push traps and Haymaker are by far the best way to get the debuff on the big minions from my experience. Their is only 1 map that I can think of with flips being better used for a debuff than for killing, and that is endless frostbite. Every other map takes better advantage of using a push trap or haymaker, and some even wall spikes. Once you achieve tier 7 of the good dmg traps, you don't even need any of those debuffs to kill the big minions on regular maps. So, truly the flip traps are better used for killing small/medium minions when steam vents can't be used in most cases.

    Also, mentioning the weekly challenges as a benchmark for "what's best" is clearly a red herring. If I remember right, they had orcs instead of order minions. Orcs don't have a shield when they get low on hp. Also, and most importantly, flip traps are painfully...painfully slow at tier 1, which all traps are in weeklies. However, when you compare tier 7 Flip traps, with light weight trigger and double spring vs spike traps with w/e parts, Flips become immensely better than spike traps. Also, as the waves progress on any rift lord level you start to get mostly bulky medium sized minions, which flip traps kill instantly and floor spikes kill...well they don't kill them. Even more so when the enemies are order minions. So, Flip traps are at worst, comparable to spike traps early waves and spike traps can't hold up anything to flip traps late game. Of course, though this only applies to tier 7 versions of the traps, since that is all I have, but clearly if you properly part your flip traps, their is no contest what's better in the long run. And having a kill box after your flip trap columns then lets you easily deal with big minions since...that's all they have to deal with, their is very few to no small minions getting past the flip traps to trigger your main kill box.

    I will concede that if you are playing solo endless, you are very limited with the measly 7 traps that you can bring. So, potentially having to nix haymakers or push traps/wall spikes for different traps could make you then require the flip traps perform the roll of debuffing. But that is really the only time I could see that being needed.
  • @Zarcos I'm not saying you need a debuff though I'd highly advise it. For flat killing flip traps are average at best because of their inability to handle runners, large minions, and bosses. Something that is only good against a single enemy type is inherently weak. But they do have amazing value as a debuff trap, your point about using Push or Haymaker's isn't bad, so long as you put a stunning accumulator on them. I wouldn't do it though because floor traps overall are your lowest damage, and therefore the best place to put CC's and Debuffs. For placing a debuff trap I'd rather lose a floor spike or brimstone than a grinder, wall blades, wall charger, or shock zapper. I think we can all agree that most damage comes from wall and ceiling traps. This is always why I stopped using the Temple Alarm Gong, I'd rather have the ceiling space for damaging traps.

    Everybody's counter argument about why a run of flip traps is good, makes the same mistake. You talk about maximizing killing of medium minions, when what makes the trap weak is that it doesn't handle runners well or large minions and bosses at all. My argument actually addresses the weakness of the trap and makes them good to have against everything, rather than only 1 out of 4 enemy types.

    You're right Zarcos there is no contest about what's better in the long run, and that is mixing your traps and not placing the same thing over and over. I really like the CC-Debuff-Damage-Damage pattern myself, though I've heard good arguments about starting over with CC again every 3rd trap instead of 4th. By having Kinetic Resonators on my floor spikes I can get away with CC every 4th trap.
  • edited January 25
    heh... I always use a flip trap with stunning acc. toward a wall trap at the start of my killbox... gives a nice boost in damage. Plus you can use a 2nd story trap :P
  • At the end of the day, if a build works for the player and the player is having fun, that is all that matters. Some players may theorycraft and test out builds to get that extra 1% efficiency while others are content with what they have. Then there is delving into regular play and endless play which may influence trap selection (expensive traps are typically better in Endless) as well as what the player has upgraded at the time.

    In general, mixture of traps will usually prevail, but there are situations where spamming traps can work just as well. The trap spam usually needs to be researched (what map, wave composition, etc.) and attended to if something comes to break it (much like barricades and barricade destroyers).

    @Sinalot
    I would use Haymakers but I don't own any. At any rate, I already managed to 5 star Gates of Thuricvod as Dobbin (Spike Trap, Viscous Tar, Push Trap, Grinders or Wall Blades, Ceiling Ballista, Swinging Mace, Barricades), alternating between Push Traps and my Wall Damage trap on the top two lanes while building three killboxes - Top Main Spawn, Top Guardian Killbox, and Bottom Right Killbox. I would get rid of many mobs as I could from the bottom spawns before going help out the other lanes, leaving the killbox and bottom right Guardian to clean up any stragglers.

    It is rough and requires a lot of attention to the mini-map, but I finally did it. There is no doubt easier ways to clear the map (if I had upgraded Wall Chargers, Shock Zappers, and Haymakers I would bring those) but I had to use what I had available due to the RNG trap progression...
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