Combo Generator and Leaderboards

terrysongcnterrysongcn Member
edited February 16 in General Discussion
Now that the patchnote is out, it is confirmed that combo generator will be added in the loot table.

This is a very bad decision. The idea of combo generator is simply wrong. People who would use combo generator are players who are after scores. The existence of combo generator will create a huge score distinction between players who have it and players who don't. The leaderboard will not be a place for skill competition anymore, but merely a place to show who is lucky enough to loot the most combo generator parts.

Plus, players who are after scores also have high account levels and mostly acquired their high-tier chests already. What are the chances to loot combo generator only from dailies and weeklies?

I spent a lot of time testing different killbox/heroes to find out the better chance to improve my score. I know how hard it is to raise the average combos even by 0.1. Now that a part, which is dropped based on pure RNG, can provide a whole combo. This negates any effort to explore better strategies and relies totally on luck, thus completely ruining the replay value of this game.

I have already brought this up to shade but he is unwilling to make a change because he doesn't think this would be a big deal. So it is unlikely that we as players would get much help from devs to play in a relatively fair environment. Therefore, I call for a boycott on combo generator. Please don't use it in leaderboards if you are a player who wants a healthy competition and fun experience.

I know there isn't any way to make sure that people don't use it if they got it. We will just have to take on our own words for it. If you have to use it to get a high record, at least have the decency to include that information by stating how many combo generators were used to get that score.

Of course, the best reaction is to NOT use it at all for leaderboards. I hope my feeling on this part is shared by other people and you would agree with me to boycott it.

Thanks,
Post edited by Harmonia on

Comments

  • TimeMasterTimeMaster Member, Early Access
    I'll be direct and honest.

    It might or might not be as determining the score after the "score rework" but it has a huge potential impact until that happens.

    From the EU leaderboards, it doesn't seem like anyone out of the guild would get close on score. The maps I tried somewhat seriously, there is a gap of around 30-40% between top score and next score out of the guild.

    Altough, we know quite accurately how the combo score is calculated and raising the combo average by 1 is equal to multiply the score from combos by 1.5 and if the average is 2 combos higher then multiplied by 2.25. So the difference is huge.


    I can't understand at all what's the point of a trap part that gives you extra combos for free, when all the essentials of comboing are minions being affected by different traps, skills or effects.

    That trap part does none of the above, why would a trap give 2, 3 or 4x combo counter with only 1 effect? Where is the logic there?
    While some other parts do add effects to traps but no extra combos.

    The worst of this trap part is that combos atm mostly (only?) affect the score, which not THAT many people cares about, and for the ones that DO care, the part makes the whole score pointlessly rigged. (Even more than it's already, because of RNG).

  • The combo generators only use is in the score mechanic, rather than any game mechanic. You won't get people to simply not use it, I don't see that happening at all, as much as I agree with your assesment of it. In the end it does nothing to help you win, so why is it in the game?
  • SeanPoeSeanPoe Member, Early Access
    The part is just poorly designed in every conceivable way.

    A couple things about combos: combos do have a non-score function.  They increase unchained meter gains and kill coins.  An extra combo increases unchained gain and kill coin by ~25%.  So this alone makes this part totally overpowered.  It's basically like saying "any enemy that crosses this trap is worth 25% more coin and 25% more unchained meter."  That is absolutely broken on its own.  It's like having 25 Bounty Generator and 5 Unchained Resonators installed on the same trap.  Yes, this single part is better than 30 parts.  Totally broken.

    It's impact on score is also totally broken.  Each additional combo increases the score kill value of an enemy by ~50%.  That means someone with this part theoretically can have a score 50% higher than someone without it.  This is absurd and also totally broken. 

    There's no way to add only a partial combo so there's no way to reduce the power of this item at all.  The only option is to totally overhaul it.  The best way to do this would probably be to split out the non-score functions of a combo and make this part do the following: "+X% to bonus coin granted by combos and +Y% to Unchained Meter per combo."  I don't know what numbers would be balanced here but something like 10% increased combo coin and 5% increased unchained meter would make this balanced relative to the two traits (Making it Rain and Easily Excited) that have similar functionality.

    Until this item is removed or overhauled I will be boycotting it's use too. 
  • I am sure that the generator can also be fun. This could lead to resource management gaining more weight again.

    But it should be equally available to all! This will be possible only after a long time.
  • TimeMasterTimeMaster Member, Early Access
    With my luck I will probably get none of them anyway.
  • kreekree Member
    Everything said here is the truth. I certainly won't be using it. Then again, I won't be going for scores either, if I even continue to play the game at all. This game is not worth taking that seriously. The existence of this part is only the most recent proof of that.
  • a boycott is wishful thinking and would never actually work.
    I am sure that the generator can also be fun. This could lead to resource management gaining more weight again.

    But it should be equally available to all! This will be possible only after a long time.
    good point but I still cant get mana siphon to drop so nothing changes for me. I'll end up getting my 15th discount coil(a part I will NEVER use) instead of combo gen or mana siphon. This loot system is awful
  • LemartesLemartes Member, Early Access, Apprentice Founder
    Im sure less than 10% of people who play this game care about score.  So it's usage will affect like 30 people.  It's not a big deal.
  • TimeMasterTimeMaster Member, Early Access
    Lemartes said:
    Im sure less than 10% of people who play this game care about score.  So it's usage will affect like 30 people.  It's not a big deal.
    I doubt any of your other 90% will use that part because of the unchained or minimal extra coins when they don't care about combos in first place. 

    So as I see it, it will only affect a minority but it's the same minority who would use it because of the score.
  • Score right now doesn't have much value. I think we could get much more than 10% to care about it, if it could reflect how well you did.
  • TimeMasterTimeMaster Member, Early Access
    Shade said that score would change soon. The problem is to define how we/they want to make it work. what variables should be taken into account and how much weight each variable should have.

    Right now it takes into account only times and combos score. With the last having the highest weight.

    Stars aren't directly affecting score.

    To make scoring/leaderboards more popular or have more meaning, they should try to be fair and to be calculated in a way that most people can relate to, rather than a single way (like comboing now) that most people isn't interested in or add some rewards or some other way to make interesting an indirect competition (maybe involving guilds).
  • GorksterGorkster Member, Early Access
    edited February 20
    I suspect that the number of people who care about highscore will hardly change no matter the highscoring specifics.

    That doesn't mean that the score system cannot be improved. Regarding the combo part shadedev talked about wanting a tradeoff. If that tradeoff exists, i.e. you indeed might score higher by using another part if only you do it right, I'm all for it.

    In a way this is how some coin crutches (coin forge, power gen) work now. They give an easily understandable and direct way to coin, but generally top notch comboing will get you more coin. So more sophisticated play is rewarded.

    If we get that same effect with the combo part, i.e. it's an easy way to boost combo, but one loses out to some actually more potent way to score, I am all for it. If however it turns out to be (and likely will be this patch) an IWin part that is acquired through pure RNG it isn't that great. I think it'd be nice if people who do highscore are transparent if they used it.
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