Insider Access#89 Feedback

ProtoZealottProtoZealott Member, Early Access
Once again I managed to miss the IA, and after finally getting around to watching the reupload on Youtube, figured I'd throw a few things out there. One of the problems with that is there isn't really a place to obviously talk about it or offer feedback (maybe here or in the suggestion tab?). As you guys (and gals) at Robot have been very open with the development of the game, and open to feedback, It might be worthwhile to have a (bi?)weekly pinned thread on here with the latest insider access. This would create a very clear place where people can share their thoughts on it without excessive clutter elsewhere. 

Now that aside, I realize this update is quite a ways down (mentioned at least 2 updates away) with the premium 'shoppe', so it's safe to assume when it hits, players will have progressed further with their ensemble of orc slaying accoutrements. As this premium shop is meant as a sort of reward and resource dump for dedicated players, why is it just another slot machine? I can appreciate that the less needed trap parts (really needs a less confusing name) are out of the equation, but why is it still just a RNG roll at the end of the day? After playing the game and maxing traps, the 'special' chest that gives rare and epic traps can still just give traps you've maxed. You, the player, are essentially throwing away time spent playing the game, and this is actually kind of insulting. Now it's also a fair point that if you had fun it's not a waste, but the way the game is designed now is very carrot and stick, so this is just as much a core to the enjoyment of the game overall as anything else! If when you finally reach the carrot you just get shocked, you're going to stop chasing the carrot!

If you could humour me and follow along with this scenario, you might see my point a bit more clearly. Imagine this, after several hours of playing the game across multiple days, you've used your accumulated skulls to purchase the last few needed pieces to max your favourite rare trap (how lucky it's been in the store for a few days in a row)! Likewise the chests you earned in the process all contributed solely to gibs. In short the past several rounds of play, have amounted mostly to gibs except for the skulls which went towards maxing that one rare trap. You now spend these gibs on a couple chests, and inside these chests you get the trap you just maxed, effectively punishing you for doing such! Then, a bit disgruntled you proceed to buy a trap part chest and get some parts you'd never actually use, whether you have too many or simply find it inferior, the point is, they're useless to you. Now as with everything in life, there are low and high points, with the extremes tending to be the most memorable. So you leave this session of play not remembering the journey, but the end with the chests you bought that essentially flipped you the orcy, and it makes turning the game on again later less appealing as a whole. Also, do keep in mind, that the more you play the game, the more likely this scenario becomes!

Look, I understand this is a business and all, and even though I've put some money into the game I by no means feel I'm owed anything. I've enjoyed the game, and definitely feel the company behind it is by far one of the better ones in the Industry. That said this whole thing just feels like a slap in the face to the players that have played and supported the game most, at least in it's currently announced form. I don't mind paying an outrageous amount of spare traps to get things I'd actually use! Just please don't make it a complete gamble! 

Also on a side note with the trap reskins and how information on a trap's power level is immediately clear. If you for example made trap reskins a gib only purchase, and only obtainable on traps that are already t7, that would still retain a level of clarity while actually creating that prestigious feel that you guys think a few skins and an Avatar picture will make (spoiler, they won't).

As a whole, I do apologize if this feels overly negative, I'm just worried that this could be a rather terrible misstep in the long term. Personally I just don't see myself continuing to come back to the game if something like this comes out. For anyone that managed to make it this far down, what do you think? Is this update fine and I'm just being a drama queen, is there a small simple change that would make it all work, or something else entirely?

Also there's some kind of an issue with editing that can eat posts saying they need admin approval, yet I've never seen any posts actually come back from this state.

Comments

  • Robot staff do take note of feedback in these forums so blogs like this are worthwhile. Having said that, sometimes blogs specific to just one topic are easier to track and maybe that's why you don't see blogs about Insider Access as a whole. This latest Insider Access was basically just about one topic, so it doesn't matter too much. 

    The way I see things is that the chance to get loot is what brings people back to the game. How many people will stop playing once they have unlocked everything and have nothing left to play for? It is a balancing act I guess. 

    Note that in the IA stream they said this is still very much still in progress, and things could (will) change before the shop appears in game. Keep on making suggestions as to how you think they can balance the shoppe concept, and maybe we will see it implemented. 
  • To summarize this premium shop in one sentence:

    "In order to solve the RNG issue, devs introduced more RNG"

    It is kinda sad for a tower defense game to maintain its retention by barring player's acquisition of traps, which normally would be the low tricks used by third-rated money-grabbing mobile games with full of micro-transactions. I'd never give more than 3 star for any game with that element.

    This is particularly sad that while at the same time I also consider this game totally has the potential to be a 5 star AAA title, as long as devs focus on creating the competitive mode to increase the replay value, optimizing the score system to include more aspects rather than combo only, developing new maps/new heroes continuously to maintain players' interest, and, most importantly, cut out the grinding orcs.
  • TimeMasterTimeMaster Member, Early Access
    From what was said in IA, and your point that is mostly related to my question and the answer it had.

    What I can see is that Gibs will be able to be spent in cosmetics/vanity and also on progression. But the whole shop will be available to the players with most time played only. Even if you do have some rare/epic T7, you will be able to raise the average level of the rest of rare/epic IF you have ENOUGH gibs for it.

    The extreme case which is me and a few more players, might be affected by the effect you describe but most of the people won't. Especially if the vanity or the other option of the Shop are cool and the prices on Gibs make you decide what to invest on. Trap parts chest will make a good deal in there.

    So it will go all down to price tuning but regardless, just a dozen of players would experience that effect if it's implemented properly, or even none.
  • yobbobear said:
    Keep on making suggestions as to how you think they can balance the shoppe concept, and maybe we will see it implemented. 
    lol

    It is very correct that you used the word "maybe" here.

    It will only be implemented if devs agree with your suggestions. They already had their own ideas and it is REALLY hard to convince them (I'm not saying it's absolutely impossible, but REALLY, REALLY hard).
  • HypovolemicHypovolemic Member
    edited March 4

    As a whole, I do apologize if this feels overly negative, I'm just worried that this could be a rather terrible misstep in the long term. Personally I just don't see myself continuing to come back to the game if something like this comes out. For anyone that managed to make it this far down, what do you think? Is this update fine and I'm just being a drama queen, is there a small simple change that would make it all work, or something else entirely?
    I don't think you're being a drama queen at all. I think you're 100% correct. There were a couple things in the IA I found concerning as well. I did appreciate the level of honesty in the IA. Because of that, we might have enough info to get the system fixed before it's released.

    I find it pretty confusing that they are even considering letting a Gibs bought chest drop surplus Traps/Parts, and hence be recycled into Gibs again.  This will cause the exact same problems as the current surplus drops. People hated getting dead drops out of map completion chests. They aren't going to hate it any less to get dead drops from a "premium" chest. We've already been over this territory a lot on the forums in discussions about surplus drops. If a player spends 100 Gibs to buy a chest that gives him 50 Gibs back, then this is going to ellicit exactly one response:  Anger.  In no scenario is that good for the game.

    Also, I don't think the number of players likely to be impacted should be a consideration. The number may be small now, but it won't always be small. It's just a problem waiting to happen. Why not solve it before it starts driving players away? And if they genuinely think it won't impact many players, then, again, why not just solve the problem now?  If it's not going to change much to remove surplus Traps/Parts from the potential premium chest drops, then why release the feature with such an obvious, and easily prevented, defect?

    I mean, we've had this conversation already. It led to the development of this whole extra Premium Shoppe system. Why do we need to have the same conversation again? I'm quite befuddled.
    Post edited by Hypovolemic on
  • orzoorzo Member
    "Players are complaining that the RNG progression feels frustrating, what should we do?"

    "Lets add another bandaid layer of RNG loot crates."

    "Brilliant! 10:30 lunch anyone?"
  • @terrysongcn you are correct. Robot's vision and business case does not always align to what players would like. For example it would be really hard to convince them to remove the only way the game can create money. 

    Hopefully the player community is larger than the staff at Robot and just might have a suggestion they haven't already thought of. 

    What would you think of having paid advertisements in the game?
    For example:
    - an ad in the corner of the dashboard,
    - clicking a link to watch an ad and get some skulls
  • SpamwagonSpamwagon Member, Master Founder, Early Access
    I don't The gib shop.   I don't like dead drops.   

    The closest resemblance this game has would be a mashup of smite(perspective) and heroes of the storm (limited character build choices).   How do those games stay profitable & keep players coming back?

    I know they certainly don't have an infuriating dead drop ridden loot system.

    since they took siege out,  I am not sure what the point of this game is.  Meaning -  what is the direction and hook?  Siege was totally unique- now we have omd 3. Good game,  but what is the point of having a big. Moba style lobby?
  • sure, you can even put some ad on the loading screen, which will guarantee some views everytime someone opens a game
  • JuicyJuicy Member, Master Founder, Early Access
    sure, you can even put some ad on the loading screen, which will guarantee some views everytime someone opens a game
    I'd rather pay a one-time $100 fee than have ads on the loading screen. Legit. Hate. Ads.
    Welcome to Juicy's Midnight Assassination Service. You grab em, I'll stab em.
  • SpamwagonSpamwagon Member, Master Founder, Early Access
    Don't like ads myself.  Don't like dead drops.  Like this game.  Want it to succeed without the aforementioned.  Not sure how you make it profitable/retain players with current state of game.   Need someone smarter than me to create solution.
  • Spamwagon said:
    I don't The gib shop.   I don't like dead drops.   

    The closest resemblance this game has would be a mashup of smite(perspective) and heroes of the storm (limited character build choices).   How do those games stay profitable & keep players coming back?

    I know they certainly don't have an infuriating dead drop ridden loot system.

    since they took siege out,  I am not sure what the point of this game is.  Meaning -  what is the direction and hook?  Siege was totally unique- now we have omd 3. Good game,  but what is the point of having a big. Moba style lobby?


    I'm level 83, none of my rare/epic traps are complete, in fact the best ones are all level 4.  I use 5 of those traps on a regular basis, and there are a couple more I'd like to use, but for me the only metric that counts is that they do the map as well/fast/easily as my regular loadouts of T6 and T7 common/uncommons do.


    Whilst I don't get to control which things I get, it sounds like gibs will for some time give me 100% usable cards, and that is probably going to persist till I'm level 100.  That is good enough.


    The real truth about the game is that I have 28 traps waiting on skulls, and some waiting on multiple lots of skulls.  I probably have 50 upgrades waiting on skulls, and gathering skulls will give me yet more upgrades waiting on skulls (as will the shop continue to chew skulls).  They have enough cards in circulation and the existing shop already strains the skull budget, so they have what they need to drive sales.  Gib shop is just a small sweetener for relatively dedicated players, and it will work fine for me.


    As far as the game goes, its a blast, and that is all it needs to be.   Personally the problem with the game is that the solution is soooooooooooooooooooo often doorfarming with the same common/uncommon loadout, and the rifts are just there to make you run away from your doorboxes for a few seconds.

  • Juicy said:
    sure, you can even put some ad on the loading screen, which will guarantee some views everytime someone opens a game
    I'd rather pay a one-time $100 fee than have ads on the loading screen. Legit. Hate. Ads.
    That's ridiculous. As long as they aren't video ads, I don't see what the problem is. It's not like there's anything else important happening on the loading screen that the adds will distract you from. If glancing at an ad once a game when I would just be waiting around anyway is the price I have to pay for a free game that doesn't have an obnoxiously difficult grind, then I'll take that deal.
  • ProtoZealottProtoZealott Member, Early Access
    Spamwagon said:
    I don't The gib shop.   I don't like dead drops.  


    I'm level 83, none of my rare/epic traps are complete, in fact the best ones are all level 4.  I use 5 of those traps on a regular basis, and there are a couple more I'd like to use, but for me the only metric that counts is that they do the map as well/fast/easily as my regular loadouts of T6 and T7 common/uncommons do.


    Whilst I don't get to control which things I get, it sounds like gibs will for some time give me 100% usable cards, and that is probably going to persist till I'm level 100.  That is good enough.


    The real truth about the game is that I have 28 traps waiting on skulls, and some waiting on multiple lots of skulls.  I probably have 50 upgrades waiting on skulls, and gathering skulls will give me yet more upgrades waiting on skulls (as will the shop continue to chew skulls).  They have enough cards in circulation and the existing shop already strains the skull budget, so they have what they need to drive sales.  Gib shop is just a small sweetener for relatively dedicated players, and it will work fine for me.

    Every purchase from this point on you make in the daily deals store are skulls you're essentially throwing away. Before accruing extra trap parts held a possible benefit down the road. There was even a mention in one of the IA's about how you might want to buy parts for a trap you already have at t7 (because you like it) for said future update. Now however, they'll all be converted into a giant slot machine, that becomes more weighed against you the more times you pull it. Every gib chest you open before you have t7 amounts, puts you closer to reaching the point where they become useless. This doesn't take into account the equippable part chest, with fewer possibilities, but that also never decreases. I hope you like having more parts than there are slots, and still not getting the part you actually want!

    The more I think about it, the more I'm kind of wondering If maybe we're misunderstanding something. There's no way they'd release something so short sighted that's obviously going to be a problem with itself.. Right?
  • JuicyJuicy Member, Master Founder, Early Access
    Juicy said:
    sure, you can even put some ad on the loading screen, which will guarantee some views everytime someone opens a game
    I'd rather pay a one-time $100 fee than have ads on the loading screen. Legit. Hate. Ads.
    That's ridiculous. As long as they aren't video ads, I don't see what the problem is. It's not like there's anything else important happening on the loading screen that the adds will distract you from. If glancing at an ad once a game when I would just be waiting around anyway is the price I have to pay for a free game that doesn't have an obnoxiously difficult grind, then I'll take that deal.
    One deals with ads on a daily basis. The last thing I want to do is start relaxing and run into them too. Nevermind the fact that ads don't generate revenue unless they're clickable (not nearly as well anyways), and I've got a clicky trigger finger. I've accidentally clicked on a shitton of ads. Then what about the fact that the loading screen pops up suddenly, as all loading screens do? What if I'm clicking on something as it pops up. Etc. Etc. - Way too much hassle, I'm not joking at all with my previous statement.
    Welcome to Juicy's Midnight Assassination Service. You grab em, I'll stab em.
  • Every purchase from this point on you make in the daily deals store are skulls you're essentially throwing away. Before accruing extra trap parts held a possible benefit down the road. There was even a mention in one of the IA's about how you might want to buy parts for a trap you already have at t7 (because you like it) for said future update. Now however, they'll all be converted into a giant slot machine, that becomes more weighed against you the more times you pull it. Every gib chest you open before you have t7 amounts, puts you closer to reaching the point where they become useless. This doesn't take into account the equippable part chest, with fewer possibilities, but that also never decreases. I hope you like having more parts than there are slots, and still not getting the part you actually want!

    The more I think about it, the more I'm kind of wondering If maybe we're misunderstanding something. There's no way they'd release something so short sighted that's obviously going to be a problem with itself.. Right?


    I have 25 rare and epic traps below T5, and nil above.  gib trap chests will NOT roll common/uncommon cards.  Therefore for the foreseeable future time that I play omdu, I am purely going to get cards from gib chests that will not gib, and will probably advance most of my rare and epic traps to T5, AFTER which the question of the parts to slot becomes important to me.  The whole mechanism you are describing will not occur during the foreseeable length of my remaining playing career!


    As far as the skulls go, what you are saying makes little sense.  I am buying rare and epic trap cards with skulls for traps that I am nowhere near finished, because those are the traps that interest me.  If I did not buy those trap cards, then I'd just have a larger pool of common/uncommon traps finished that I have no intention or desire to use.  I mean how many physical wall traps do I really need ?


  • Spamwagon said:
    I don't The gib shop.   I don't like dead drops.  


    I'm level 83, none of my rare/epic traps are complete, in fact the best ones are all level 4.  I use 5 of those traps on a regular basis, and there are a couple more I'd like to use, but for me the only metric that counts is that they do the map as well/fast/easily as my regular loadouts of T6 and T7 common/uncommons do.


    Whilst I don't get to control which things I get, it sounds like gibs will for some time give me 100% usable cards, and that is probably going to persist till I'm level 100.  That is good enough.


    The real truth about the game is that I have 28 traps waiting on skulls, and some waiting on multiple lots of skulls.  I probably have 50 upgrades waiting on skulls, and gathering skulls will give me yet more upgrades waiting on skulls (as will the shop continue to chew skulls).  They have enough cards in circulation and the existing shop already strains the skull budget, so they have what they need to drive sales.  Gib shop is just a small sweetener for relatively dedicated players, and it will work fine for me.

    Every purchase from this point on you make in the daily deals store are skulls you're essentially throwing away. Before accruing extra trap parts held a possible benefit down the road. There was even a mention in one of the IA's about how you might want to buy parts for a trap you already have at t7 (because you like it) for said future update. Now however, they'll all be converted into a giant slot machine, that becomes more weighed against you the more times you pull it. Every gib chest you open before you have t7 amounts, puts you closer to reaching the point where they become useless. This doesn't take into account the equippable part chest, with fewer possibilities, but that also never decreases. I hope you like having more parts than there are slots, and still not getting the part you actually want!

    The more I think about it, the more I'm kind of wondering If maybe we're misunderstanding something. There's no way they'd release something so short sighted that's obviously going to be a problem with itself.. Right?


    The gib trap boxes will not roll commons or uncommons.  My best epic / rare traps are T4.  I am unlikely through complete content exhaustion to play the game until such time as I'm gibbing the contents of a gib trap box.  I'm already a relatively high level player, with relatively large level of time invested, and with a moderate forecast for future time to put into the game due to exhausting all the 5 star content, and not being that interested in completing every content with every character.


    I am not spending my skulls on common/uncommon traps, therefore they are not wasted, I'm directing the skulls away from T5 and T6 common/uncommon traps for which I have the cards for, but don't care about making them T7, for the traps I'm interested in - epics/rares.  What I am likely to get from the shoppe is most of the epics/rares up to T5, with the second part slot opened, which is usually sufficient to access the majority of the power of the traps.


    ie whether its useful or not to you, its certainly useful to me. 


  • mdragoonmdragoon Member
    Gibs chests will result in a way to more reliably level higher rarity traps if the devs indeed do start upping the trap level cap. This could in turn lead to more parts being available in the future and even crazier high powered traps. This also could lead to things like higher difficulty levels. I would say looking at the premium shop as the game exists now is a bit short-sighted and I understand that people don't want more slots machine shopping in the game but if that is the case then the entire loot system would need to be changed, it's just an extension of what already exists and is a small mental leap for continuing to ramp the difficulty as otherwise rare traps would become useless simply due to their rarity alone.
    Increasing the number of times TimeMaster calls me inefficient everyday! ^_^
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