feedback about game progression

2

Comments

  • ShadeDevShadeDev Member, Robot Entertainment, Early Access, Apprentice Founder, Featured Developer
    edited March 6
    ShadeDev said:
    The first attempt on Master maps has similar success rate to first attempts on Warmage maps.
    This refers to solo players or all games?

    Because i share Terry´s opinion.
    All AND solo.

    I think, in general, apprentice let's you win, while warmage requires you to not die.

    If you have trouble with surviving, warmage feels significantly harder.  If you don't, you won't notice the difficulty until master.
    Doug Houserman
    Robot Entertainment | Lead Balance Designer
  • SeanPoeSeanPoe Member, Early Access
    mind listing your killbox combination and tiers?
    When i was still progressing through master it was something like:

    Barricade T3-T4, Brimstone T3-T4, Viscous Tar T1-T3, Wall Blades T2-T3, Pounder T3-T5, Scorcher T1-T2, Ice Shard T2-T4 and on some maps i'd sub out a trap (usually Wall Blade or Pounder if there's no walls or ceilings) for Dragon Lance T1-T2 or for Floor Spikes T3-T4.   
  • SeanPoeSeanPoe Member, Early Access
    ShadeDev said:

    If you have trouble with surviving, warmage feels significantly harder.  If you don't, you won't notice the difficulty until master.
    Also worth noting that Warmage seems to be about learning how to deal with all the new special units too.  Like bombers (especially the shielded bomber), grenadiers, earthlings and earth elementals, satyrs, and pride hunters (the hardest new enemy to deal with in my opinion because they warp around).  A veteran player that already knows how all these enemies work and how to deal with them won't notice much difficulty moving from apprentice to warmage.  New players will definitely notice the difficulty as they see each new enemy for the first time and probably lose a game because of it.  Like the first time a bomber kills a cade, satyrs run through the entire killbox with 100% hp, or a pride hunter two-shots you. 
  • ShadeDevShadeDev Member, Robot Entertainment, Early Access, Apprentice Founder, Featured Developer
    SeanPoe said:
    ShadeDev said:

    If you have trouble with surviving, warmage feels significantly harder.  If you don't, you won't notice the difficulty until master.
    Also worth noting that Warmage seems to be about learning how to deal with all the new special units too.  Like bombers (especially the shielded bomber), grenadiers, earthlings and earth elementals, satyrs, and pride hunters (the hardest new enemy to deal with in my opinion because they warp around).  A veteran player that already knows how all these enemies work and how to deal with them won't notice much difficulty moving from apprentice to warmage.  New players will definitely notice the difficulty as they see each new enemy for the first time and probably lose a game because of it.  Like the first time a bomber kills a cade, satyrs run through the entire killbox with 100% hp, or a pride hunter two-shots you. 
    Right, another good point.
    Doug Houserman
    Robot Entertainment | Lead Balance Designer
  • JuicyJuicy Member, Master Founder, Early Access
    ShadeDev said:
    The first attempt on Master maps has similar success rate to first attempts on Warmage maps.
    Out of curiosity, how about the stars on these clears? Because I felt the same rough success on them, but I think I did worse on Master star-wise.
    Welcome to Juicy's Midnight Assassination Service. You grab em, I'll stab em.
  • just solo 5 starred all master maps and the final account level being 30. this is a little bit more than natural progression (Timemaster invited me for some casual games and that boosted my level by 3). The ideal natural progression after all master maps should be around 27.

    however, rift lord maps unlock at 40. I don't understand why set this level gate? This reminds me the first time I played through and I also got to this point where I beated all maps but got nothing to do except to grind. This forced grinding does NOT feel right. Is there a problem to remove the level gates for tiers? It's not like many people will just stomp through with underleveled accounts (some players may do for the purpose of a challenge), isn't it?
  • JuicyJuicy Member, Master Founder, Early Access
    just solo 5 starred all master maps and the final account level being 30. this is a little bit more than natural progression (Timemaster invited me for some casual games and that boosted my level by 3). The ideal natural progression after all master maps should be around 27.

    however, rift lord maps unlock at 40. I don't understand why set this level gate? This reminds me the first time I played through and I also got to this point where I beated all maps but got nothing to do except to grind. This forced grinding does NOT feel right. Is there a problem to remove the level gates for tiers? It's not like many people will just stomp through with underleveled accounts (some players may do for the purpose of a challenge), isn't it?
    And, sheerly for arguments sake, how many times did you fail? Progression does have a few losses built into it, and I would imagine a few replays. Yes 30/40 seems rather high, but keep in mind it should include a little wiggle for things like losses.
    Welcome to Juicy's Midnight Assassination Service. You grab em, I'll stab em.
  • SeanPoeSeanPoe Member, Early Access
    edited March 7
    Juicy said:
    And, sheerly for arguments sake, how many times did you fail? Progression does have a few losses built into it, and I would imagine a few replays. Yes 30/40 seems rather high, but keep in mind it should include a little wiggle for things like losses.
    It took probably 60-70 games to level from 30-40.  Now consider that I only had around 70 total games played when I completely finished 5 starring all the master maps.  So I had to pretty much double my total games played just to unlock the next level bracket by grinding maps I had already done.  Also most of those original 70 games were done on a lower difficulty which take less time than the 60-70 master games I had to complete just to level to 40.  So really I probably had to triple my total play time just to level from 30-40.  It is a little excessive. 
  • GorksterGorkster Member, Early Access
    The problem here is that it is sensible to tune progression around typical players, not the most experienced players in the game.

    What @terrysongcn and @SeanPoe can do clearing maps is however the extreme end of the scale and unlikely reflects most players experience with the game when they start it fresh. You know all maps, all strategies, fine details of killbox efficiencies, and how hero kits work and how to play them exceedingly well. Virtually none of that is true for new players.

    People will make more mistakes, will take longer learning how to 5 star a map and will need to learn hero kits. So while it sounds like a lot having to play 3 times over to make a hurdle, perhaps most new players indeed need to try that many times and hence do not experience that gate at all?

    That said, I don't think that gating is an elegant solution. I do think that for example encouraging varied hero play is a good idea, and it would automatically lead to more time and experience accumulated and some replay of the same map. Currently there are no direct ways in which replay with different heroes is encouraged (except for another chest). Perhaps adding some story lines that bring heroes in would create that replayability and hide these gate steps or make them more lore-like. If say max and gabby had to finish their stories before advancing to master that'd give some more tangible reason for being denied entry than not being level 40. (Just a random thought, not saying this is fleshed out).
  • TimeMasterTimeMaster Member, Early Access
    edited March 7
    SeanPoe said:
    Juicy said:
    And, sheerly for arguments sake, how many times did you fail? Progression does have a few losses built into it, and I would imagine a few replays. Yes 30/40 seems rather high, but keep in mind it should include a little wiggle for things like losses.
    It took probably 60-70 games to level from 30-40.  Now consider that I only had around 70 total games played when I completely finished 5 starring all the master maps.  So I had to pretty much double my total games played just to unlock the next level bracket by grinding maps I had already done.  Also most of those original 70 games were done on a lower difficulty which take less time than the 60-70 master games I had to complete just to level to 40.  So really I probably had to triple my total play time just to level from 30-40.  It is a little excessive. 
    Unless XP progression changed, my experience didn't really match yours. Even with less Master and Warmage maps playable. And no Quests:



    80 games to lvl 35 and a half. Completed all stars until master around lvl 34.

    With another 80 games I probably was 50 and with all rift lord maps finished.
  • You forgot the survival pass. :P
  • TimeMasterTimeMaster Member, Early Access
    You forgot the survival pass. :P
    Uhh, true. I keep forgetting that.
  • Juicy said:
    just solo 5 starred all master maps and the final account level being 30. this is a little bit more than natural progression (Timemaster invited me for some casual games and that boosted my level by 3). The ideal natural progression after all master maps should be around 27.

    however, rift lord maps unlock at 40. I don't understand why set this level gate? This reminds me the first time I played through and I also got to this point where I beated all maps but got nothing to do except to grind. This forced grinding does NOT feel right. Is there a problem to remove the level gates for tiers? It's not like many people will just stomp through with underleveled accounts (some players may do for the purpose of a challenge), isn't it?
    And, sheerly for arguments sake, how many times did you fail? Progression does have a few losses built into it, and I would imagine a few replays. Yes 30/40 seems rather high, but keep in mind it should include a little wiggle for things like losses.
    if I fail I just abort the game, potions are expensive
  • SeanPoeSeanPoe Member, Early Access
    edited March 8
    Unless XP progression changed, my experience didn't really match yours. Even with less Master and Warmage maps playable. And no Quests:

    [Removed Image]

    80 games to lvl 35 and a half. Completed all stars until master around lvl 34.

    With another 80 games I probably was 50 and with all rift lord maps finished.
    80 games to get 35 with a survival pass and a teammate with survival pass would be 104 games to get to 35 without the XP bonuses.  Leveling 35 to 40 is the largest chunk of that time, requiring around 350 xp for the last few levels and you only get around 60-70 per master's game, so you'd need an additional 26 games, or 130 total games which matches my numbers exactly. 
  • JuicyJuicy Member, Master Founder, Early Access
    Juicy said:
    just solo 5 starred all master maps and the final account level being 30. this is a little bit more than natural progression (Timemaster invited me for some casual games and that boosted my level by 3). The ideal natural progression after all master maps should be around 27.

    however, rift lord maps unlock at 40. I don't understand why set this level gate? This reminds me the first time I played through and I also got to this point where I beated all maps but got nothing to do except to grind. This forced grinding does NOT feel right. Is there a problem to remove the level gates for tiers? It's not like many people will just stomp through with underleveled accounts (some players may do for the purpose of a challenge), isn't it?
    And, sheerly for arguments sake, how many times did you fail? Progression does have a few losses built into it, and I would imagine a few replays. Yes 30/40 seems rather high, but keep in mind it should include a little wiggle for things like losses.
    if I fail I just abort the game, potions are expensive
    On a mostly unrelated note.. People use consumables that often? I legit haven't used em once.
    Welcome to Juicy's Midnight Assassination Service. You grab em, I'll stab em.
  • TimeMasterTimeMaster Member, Early Access
    Juicy said:
    Juicy said:
    just solo 5 starred all master maps and the final account level being 30. this is a little bit more than natural progression (Timemaster invited me for some casual games and that boosted my level by 3). The ideal natural progression after all master maps should be around 27.

    however, rift lord maps unlock at 40. I don't understand why set this level gate? This reminds me the first time I played through and I also got to this point where I beated all maps but got nothing to do except to grind. This forced grinding does NOT feel right. Is there a problem to remove the level gates for tiers? It's not like many people will just stomp through with underleveled accounts (some players may do for the purpose of a challenge), isn't it?
    And, sheerly for arguments sake, how many times did you fail? Progression does have a few losses built into it, and I would imagine a few replays. Yes 30/40 seems rather high, but keep in mind it should include a little wiggle for things like losses.
    if I fail I just abort the game, potions are expensive
    On a mostly unrelated note.. People use consumables that often? I legit haven't used em once.
    I didn't need nor used any when first completing the maps.

    For Highscores, they are a good boost. For endless they are like having extra traits.
  • Juicy said:
    Juicy said:
    just solo 5 starred all master maps and the final account level being 30. this is a little bit more than natural progression (Timemaster invited me for some casual games and that boosted my level by 3). The ideal natural progression after all master maps should be around 27.

    however, rift lord maps unlock at 40. I don't understand why set this level gate? This reminds me the first time I played through and I also got to this point where I beated all maps but got nothing to do except to grind. This forced grinding does NOT feel right. Is there a problem to remove the level gates for tiers? It's not like many people will just stomp through with underleveled accounts (some players may do for the purpose of a challenge), isn't it?
    And, sheerly for arguments sake, how many times did you fail? Progression does have a few losses built into it, and I would imagine a few replays. Yes 30/40 seems rather high, but keep in mind it should include a little wiggle for things like losses.
    if I fail I just abort the game, potions are expensive
    On a mostly unrelated note.. People use consumables that often? I legit haven't used em once.
    Same. I don't have the spare skulls for those.
  • Will1Will1 Member
    I'm sorry but I read this:

    1) apprentice and warmage tier can actually be combined. There isn't a significant difficulty spike and progression feels smoothly (meaning no grinding needed, natural leveling up is sufficient for all maps)

    All apprentice and warmage maps are a bit too easy. 
    And I just want to say I don't agree.  I have gotten 33 stars on Apprentice and 3 on Warmage so far and Warmage is significantly harder.  I don't know about the rest of it, as I have not gotten that far and cannot comment.  But Warmage feels like a massive jarring difficulty spike over apprentice.  And the game doesn't seem to explain any of it.  Why are my barricades getting blown up?  How do enemy heroes work?  Why did the lion thing just eat my face?  All good questions.  Could use some more tutorials (maybe?).  Answers are learned via trial and error and my honest opinion is that it is only easy for you because you know what to do now.  Of course it's easy for you.  But saying that it's too easy and there isn't a difficulty spike, just because you don't notice any of the difficulty anymore, is just plain wrong.

    Although I will agree with this:

    there is a significant restriction on deck building due to the RNG loot system. I get some rare/epic traps but I just can't use them. It is always better to spam floorspikes with a low account level, simply because it is the highest tier available. Players are discouraged to design a killbox that enables high combo, but are forced to spam floorspikes to provide enough damage output.

    I'm not saying spamming floorspike isn't a good way to play this game, but it becomes a problem when it is the ONLY way to play at low account level. Using 10 trap quota, a killbox with barricade/T1 brimsone/T1 shock zapper/T1 tar/T1 wallcharger would never compete with 10 T3 floorspikes, no matter in damage output or money cost. You may argue that T3 traps should be better than T1 traps, but why give player the rarity difference that when they got T3 floorspikes and other traps can only be T1?


    Sort of...

    Unless I don't understand at all then all I currently need to use are Spikes, Brimstone, and Barricades (levels 3, 2, and 2 respectively).  Maybe flip traps on a couple obvious "gimme" spots and maybe Arrow Traps or the zappy things when I have no room on the floor of the kill box.  But for the most part it feels like I don't have access to enough good traps to be able to do anything other than the basics.

    It also really really hurts to build anything other than spikes b/c they are just dirt cheap.  I splurge on some barricades and a single 3-of row of Brimstone, but for the most part building lots of spikes is easiest way to beat level.
  • JuicyJuicy Member, Master Founder, Early Access
    Will1 said:
    Condensed to save space
    This is great feedback, especially for those of us that play alot. It's often quite easy to forget the game can be challenging from the start, when you don't know what you're doing. Especially when we've been here through so many iterations of the game that we don't remember that time.

    And while you are correct that the game encourages you to use things like the spikes, barricades, and brimstone at low levels (TBH barricades never go away) - it encourages you to branch out later. Spikes are great because they're cheap, but they aren't good at everything (despite what robot devs may believe ;). ) Eventually you branch out into other traps, and it'll probably be clear later. However you unintentionally make a point that's worth noting. You mention rows of 3 brimstones (and maybe I don't understand you clearly here), but having 3 brimstones in a row isn't really a great idea. Brimstone lights enemies on fire, applying a DoT to them, so they take so much damage every half second or something. When you place them in a row, you're not getting the full damage potential out of a brimstone trap. They're best with a spike or tar in between them. However, there's no way for you to know that, because the game never gives you tips like that.

    See, it's interesting to me because those of us that give alot of feedback on the forums never realize these things. We know the inner workings of the game so well, things like this don't register in our heads anymore. So, as an FYI: If you ever, ever, ever x500 think that something is unintuitive, or not explained very well, mention it. Because it's something that players like myself and terrysongcn won't ever notice - we've been here so long we don't notice when something isn't explained very well.
    Welcome to Juicy's Midnight Assassination Service. You grab em, I'll stab em.
  • There are two types of difficulties, one is being unfamiliar with the game mechanism, just as you described when barricades got blown, enemy heroes show up...etc; the other type is the damage penalty for underlevels

    The first type of difficulty can be conquered by players, eventually everybody will know what to do about this game; the second type of difficulty cannot be handled only by player's experience. It is imposed by design for the sole purpose of prolonging the game's longevity. It is forced grinding.
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