"Premium Shoppe" - I don't like it. What about you?

edited March 12 in General Discussion
Ok, what SHOULD happen is, as you level traps to the max - guess what?  Those maxxed traps fall off of the loot list for the particular chest that you buy or win.  Thus, as you progress through the game, you will EVENTUALLY be able to acquire everything, as the loot lists for each chest funnel down to useful items.

Here comes "premium shop" - loot lists for different chests NEVER change, and thus as you progress through the game you will NEVER be guaranteed to acquire everything unless you spend sooo much money or play for suuuuch a long time, that you beat the odds.

Everyone sees what you are doing with this - creating hollow / shallow grind.   I don't think any of your players like it.

Please don't act like it is a "feature" - it is insulting.
Post edited by Spamwagon on
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  • The problem is that it ends the progression. quickly. I would be able to cap traps out in a matter of a week. In order for the game to have a healthy, lasting progression, it needs to not end after a week. This means RNG needs to be included. The shop does limit the RNG down, the chest wasn't the full list of items right? There's a balance for RNG to work, and this may strike the right balance. I'll have to see it to be sure, but yknow.
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  • I think if they were to remove certain things from the loot table it would force players even more to go back and play lower levels just to attempt getting cards for traps they still needed more of that weren't available in the higher difficulties.
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  • edited March 7
    Juicy said:
    In order for the game to have a healthy, lasting progression, it needs to not end after a week...
    Right
    Juicy said:
    ... This means RNG needs to be included.
    Wrong, there are many other ways to have a healthy and lasting progression. Such as:

    1) instead of spending time designing different grinding patterns, use that time to design new maps and new heroes. Devs are already doing this on weeklies, why make them disappear after a week? why not summarize them and create another category when players click that big "play" button?

    2) instead of spending time creating different shops, use that time to design a competitive mode where every game is different because of facing different opponents rather than different game contents. You don't have to grind your orc off for a bishop when you play chess, yet chess can be played over and over again without feeling bored

    3) instead of spending time restricting players' progression speed, use that time to design different challenges on existing maps. such as 10 trap quota, permanent death, only tier 1 traps allowed......etc
  • So much dev time and effort being spent trying to bandaid an obviously flawed loot system because fixing the loot system would show how shallow the content currently is.

    Admitting that the loot system is being used to time gate content is essentially admitting that your core gameplay doesn't hold up. Forcing your playerbase to play stale content by replaying every map with every hero to gamble on some artificial lottery system to unlock more in game content which becomes exponentially harder to "win" as you progress through it is the most disappointing thing I've seen this studio do.

    There's an infinite number of ways to make the game better, terrysongcn gave you some free advice, yet for whatever reason you chose gating loot to be the hook you want to use to keep players interested. It's pretty telling that it's easier to "gear up" in notoriously bad loot ARPGs (Early Diablo 3 anyone?) than it is in OMDU. Players have ground out level 100 and are still missing content.  It is absolutely absurd that the loot system is so horrendous you could have hundreds of hours into the game and still be missing unlockable content. 

    I'm curious on what the loot percentages are. I'm curious if anyone's done the math on mean time for players to have all T7 traps and all non-trap drops looted. I'm curious what the project manager feels is an acceptable amount of time for someone to have unlocked all the loot content.

    I love the OMD franchise. I love the gameplay, I love the art, I love the levels, I love the trap design, I love the heroes. I'll continue playing the series as long as you release new content.

    I do not, however, love the choices Robot Ent has made with OMDU. You guys have some great IP, obviously great talent at the studio, and it's completely disheartening that's been squandered by poor choices in direction by the leadership.

    The loot system cannot hold up shallow gameplay. Fix the loot, develop the gameplay. And for the love of all that is holy stop selling chests for real money while you know the chest system isn't working, it's completely scummy.
  • edited March 7
    ParkDongHae said:

    I'm curious on what the loot percentages are. I'm curious if anyone's done the math on mean time for players to have all T7 traps and all non-trap drops looted. I'm curious what the project manager feels is an acceptable amount of time for someone to have unlocked all the loot content.
    This is based on data up until February before patch 1.8, they adjusted the rarity rate a little since then but you can still get the magnitude right.






    For every week there are 2 star chests and 3 hero chests from weekly challenge
    For every day there is 1 star chest from daily quest

    From Dec 6 to Feb 1, there are 57 days/8 weeks, yielding a total of
    57*1+8*2=73 star chests *5 = 365 cards
    8*3 = 24 hero chests *4 = 96 cards

    In game there are in total:

    90 star chests
    28 chests in rift lord *5 = 140 cards
    24 chests in master *4 = 96 cards
    22 chests in warmage *3 = 66 cards
    16 chests in apprentice *2 = 32 cards

    675 hero chests
    14 maps in rift lord *15 = 210 chests *4 = 840 cards
    12 maps in master *15 = 180 chests *3 = 540 cards
    11 maps in warmage * 15 = 165 chests *2 = 330 cards
    8 maps in apprentice *15 = 120 chests *1 = 120 cards


    That is a total of 2625 cards. I didn't farm apprentice so what I got for my inventory is 2625 - 120 = 2505 cards

    So far I have a total of 102 epic traps and 2234 rare traps

    In order to upgrade an epic trap to T7, it requires 1+2+3+4+5+7 = 22 traps, there are a total of 12 epic traps, thus it requires 22*12 = 264 traps to upgrade all
    In order to upgrade a rare trap to T7, it requires 15+30+45+60+75+100 = 325 traps, there are a total of 12 rare traps, thus it requires 325*12 = 3900 traps to upgrade all

    This means, given my drop rate, I need to farm 2505/2234*3900 = 4373 cards to get all rare T7; or 2505/102*246 = 6041 cards to get all epic T7

    If I rely only on dailies and weeklies, which are the only sources of chests for me at this moment and it gives (365+96)/57 = 8 cards per day. I will need to farm an extra of (4373-2505)/8 = 233 days to get all rare T7; or farm an extra of (6041-2505)/8 = 442 days to get all epic T7.

    Note the fact that I have much more items in my inventory compared to other players. For a new player starting fresh, if he/she relies only on daily and weekly to progress his/her deck, it will take 4373/8=546 days to get all rare T7, or 6041/8=755 days to get all epic T7. That's literally a year or two.

    So, I would say this is definitely NOT a satisfactory volume for my farming. No F2P games would require this amount of grinding to be able to sustain.
  • edited March 7
    Buying chests = $0.36/card.

    With your math, unlocking all T7 traps would cost $2,174.76.

    Why does Robot Ent think that's at all a reasonable amount?

    Edit: To unlock all content and get a similar play experience as OMD2, I'd have to invest 755 days of play, or $2,174.76, or some combination of the two.  This is absolutely ridiculous.

    For comparison, I was able to unlock all content in OMD2 for 15$ and 100 hours of time.
  • edited March 7
    ShadeDev said:
    Removing things from the loot table would deplete content far too quickly, which would mean we would have to slow down trap distribution.  That affects a much greater percentage of the playerbase.
    Serious question:  How would removing tier 7 traps from the loot table accelerate progression?

    By the time surplus cards start to drop, trap upgrades are primarily limited by Skulls, not trap cards. Removing tier 7 traps from the loot table will just push card acquisition towards rare/epic, but it will have no impact on Skulls, so the totally number of high tier traps a player has will still be limited in the exact same way.

    Sure, it would increase the amount of choice that a high level player has w.r.t. to which traps to upgrade. But I don't see the problem with that. You're talking about people who have hundreds of played hours invested. If anything, I think you're more likely to drive players away if it takes 1,000 hours to upgrade everything than you are to keep them.  People aren't going to quit playing suddenly after 200 hours because they finally got Shock Zapper to Tier 7. I think they're a lot more likely to quit if they can't, because they'll get bored from playing end-game content with the same tired set of common traps.

    Now, I know y'all are releasing this Premium Shoppe, so removing tier 7 traps from map victory chests is off the table. But, this same logic applies to the Premium Shoppe.
    Post edited by Hypovolemic on
  • Juicy said:
    In order for the game to have a healthy, lasting progression, it needs to not end after a week...
    Right
    Juicy said:
    ... This means RNG needs to be included.
    Wrong, there are many other ways to have a healthy and lasting progression. Such as:

    1) instead of spending time designing different grinding patterns, use that time to design new maps and new heroes. Devs are already doing this on weeklies, why make them disappear after a week? why not summarize them and create another category when players click that big "play" button?

    2) instead of spending time creating different shops, use that time to design a competitive mode where every game is different because of facing different opponents rather than different game contents. You don't have to grind your orc off for a bishop when you play chess, yet chess can be played over and over again without feeling bored

    3) instead of spending time restricting players' progression speed, use that time to design different challenges on existing maps. such as 10 trap quota, permanent death, only tier 1 traps allowed......etc
    1.) Alright, that gives content. That however doesn't make the game last much longer at all for someone like me, who will play 10 hours a day when they first start a game. Great, the game lasted 2 extra days?

    2.) They did create a competitive mode, it was called siege. It also didn't work out as intended. I have no doubt that competitive will come back in some form, and I'm assuming it'll bring rewards per-run with it. You've got to consider who works on what. Who works on a new competitive mode? Programmers. Artists. Who works on a new shop that balances the ingame economy? Probably @ShadeDev , the guy in charge of balance. Different people means they could be done at the same time.

    3.) Once again, this doesn't stretch playtime. Great, you added 2 days. Instead of a game that lasts awhile, it lasts an extra week.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm a strong supporter of the idea of no progression whatsoever. Give everyone all the traps and all the upgrades and let it be what it is. But if this the road they're going down, I can see the reasoning behind it.
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  • Yeah.

    Still a problem.  This "progression" system is still broken. Haven't seen any solutions yet.
  • What if we could just pay *insert reasonable amount here* Gibbs to get items we want?  Like a "crafting" system?  So traps, perks, etc. that are otherwise just completely rng based are available for sale once you start earning this particular currency?

    Right now, as a new player, I am having a lot of fun but it seems to me that at some point I am going to want specific things I will have no way to purposefully go about obtaining.  That's one of my biggest concerns for when I reach end-game content.  What happens if I really like *insert favorite trap here* but I can't use it because the rng loot table decides I'm just not going to get any?
  • Will1 said:
    What if we could just pay *insert reasonable amount here* Gibbs to get items we want?  Like a "crafting" system?  So traps, perks, etc. that are otherwise just completely rng based are available for sale once you start earning this particular currency?

    Right now, as a new player, I am having a lot of fun but it seems to me that at some point I am going to want specific things I will have no way to purposefully go about obtaining.  That's one of my biggest concerns for when I reach end-game content.  What happens if I really like *insert favorite trap here* but I can't use it because the rng loot table decides I'm just not going to get any?
    This is a logical concern. This is one of the reasons I believe you should have everything unlocked from the getgo, but still need to upgrade it. Able to use everything, however not everything at T7. That said, in the current iteration of the system (and the proposed gib store, I imagine) the idea is RNG. You've got a chance to get what you want, and in practice it's worked pretty well for getting most items. It's getting alot of the same object that proves to be difficult (whether that be upgrading traps or getting lots of one part). The gib store should, theoretically, remedy that. It should lower the RNG pool to just items that you should already have difficulty getting. For example, I've cleared most of the maps on the game. I have almost every trap/guardian/gear/trait, but I'm missing a hefty chunk of parts, and I've got alot of rare/epic traps that are t2-4 instead of t6-7 like my uncommon and common traps. As I understand the suggested store, it will be limited to certain items (probably the ones you've got problems getting lots of now) - essentially balancing out your deck.

    The only problem I see with the suggested store is making sure the ratio is right (If you can buy one gib chest after getting a bajillion gibs, the system won't work), and that the system is aimed at high level players.

    P.S. to actually address your question, it kind of breaks the progression system. Now, you could jack the prices way up to compensate, and offer the proposed chests, or specific items for 10x the amount (allowing you to unlock exactly what you want, but you're gunna pay for it). That's something they'll have to decide. But if you make them available for a low amount, you unfortunately just break the progression system.
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  • I'm assuming it would be like any other F2P game where crafting what you want would be prohibitively expensive compared to opening it in *insert gatcha item here*.
  • Will1 said:
    I'm assuming it would be like any other F2P game where crafting what you want would be prohibitively expensive compared to opening it in *insert gatcha item here*.
    In fact, that's exactly how things used to be in OMDU before the update that removed Siege. I have still have gripes about RNG, but it's definitely much better than the old system.
  • edited March 9
    Will1 said:
    I'm assuming it would be like any other F2P game where crafting what you want would be prohibitively expensive compared to opening it in *insert gatcha item here*.
    In fact, that's exactly how things used to be in OMDU before the update that removed Siege. I have still have gripes about RNG, but it's definitely much better than the old system.
    In fairness to the old system, I think it was a better fit for this type of game. If they had done a variant of the old crafting system with the progression speed of the current system, then I think it would've made an overall better game. The biggest problem with the old system is that they had extreme play cycle expectations. It was in the neighborhood of 800 hours to get seven fully parted tier 7 traps, instead of something more sane like 200-300 hours to get 20 complete traps. That led to a lot of negative Steam reviews.

    I think this fully RNG system is viable, but not if the devs slip back into old attitudes regarding play cycle expectations. This isn't an MMO. I think trying to stretch inventory completion beyond 200-300 hours is just going to reduce the appeal to casual (most) players and generate more negative game reviews.

    Extending play beyond inventory completion should come from game modes with dynamic challenges, like PvP. That can be tied to a grind for status symbol cosmetic though the Gibs store.
  • Repetition/RNG is not content. You either deliver "real" content or deliver nothing at all. And saying that the game "needs" said RNG/repetition is somewhat insulting. Like calling us hamsters or animals that does not have the ability to judge and/or rationalize.

    That's all I'm saying about this.
  • Let me clarify: The old system let you choose what to unlock, but was extremely slow. The current system unlocks stuff much quicker, but not always the stuff you want. To me, something is better than nothing. All I said is that I prefer the latter to the former; I don't know where your imagined "insult" is. Of course there are still ways to improve the system, I never said there weren't.

  • ShadeDev said:
    Removing things from the loot table would deplete content far too quickly
    ...and more RNG will certainly deplete the playerbase far too quickly.
    I mean, I do understand that this game needs something to increase replay value -- but repetition (i.e RNG, grind, anything that makes the player feel "stuck" in order to achieve a certain goal) is definitely not the best way to do such. You may attract simple-minded players that are satisfied with using half of their brains repeating the same map over and over again, but... if you want to do this right, add more variety to the gameplay.
    In other words: Minions with varied types of attack. New gameplay mechanics. New gimmicks. New kinds of traps that does different stuff like teleporting you around the map. Just...geez. Please do "try" to make this game better instead of resorting to "cheap" attempts, for gods sake.
  • edited March 10
    ShadeDev said:
    Removing things from the loot table would deplete content far too quickly, which would mean we would have to slow down trap distribution.  That affects a much greater percentage of the playerbase.

    Just to clarify - opening chests full of dead drops is NOT "content".

    Laying out intricate trap fields with your friends to combat an ever-evolving enemy (both in complexity and brute force) - IS content.

    You don't "have to slow down trap distribution" - because that isn't where you guys should  be  firing your content arrow (or shooting your content wad, if you prefer).

    Forgive the comparison, but you guys ARE trying to get  piece of that LoL money, lets look at how THEY do it.  


    There is a VERY short introductory period where you unlock all of your customization options (runes,etc.), and you can utilize real money to expedite that. Within a week you can have ALL your desired runes bought.    The real meat of the game (a.k.a. "content") is building and performing to overcome the enemy.  ABSOLUTELY NOT unlocking items to put onto your rune page.

    I recognize that now that you guys have shuttered the siege aspect of the game that you are kind of tailspinning on how to monetize this thing - but let me assure you - endless chests full of stuff you can't use, that you can turn into chests of more stuff you can't use -IS NOT CONTENT PEOPLE WILL PAY FOR - and that is precisely how it will be perceived by the gaming community.

    Don't make the mistake of being labelled a "lockbox" game - shudder.
    Post edited by Harmonia on
  • So much dev time and effort being spent trying to bandaid an obviously flawed loot system because fixing the loot system would show how shallow the content currently is.

    Admitting that the loot system is being used to time gate content is essentially admitting that your core gameplay doesn't hold up. Forcing your playerbase to play stale content by replaying every map with every hero to gamble on some artificial lottery system to unlock more in game content which becomes exponentially harder to "win" as you progress through it is the most disappointing thing I've seen this studio do.

    There's an infinite number of ways to make the game better, terrysongcn gave you some free advice, yet for whatever reason you chose gating loot to be the hook you want to use to keep players interested. It's pretty telling that it's easier to "gear up" in notoriously bad loot ARPGs (Early Diablo 3 anyone?) than it is in OMDU. Players have ground out level 100 and are still missing content.  It is absolutely absurd that the loot system is so horrendous you could have hundreds of hours into the game and still be missing unlockable content. 

    I'm curious on what the loot percentages are. I'm curious if anyone's done the math on mean time for players to have all T7 traps and all non-trap drops looted. I'm curious what the project manager feels is an acceptable amount of time for someone to have unlocked all the loot content.

    I love the OMD franchise. I love the gameplay, I love the art, I love the levels, I love the trap design, I love the heroes. I'll continue playing the series as long as you release new content.

    I do not, however, love the choices Robot Ent has made with OMDU. You guys have some great IP, obviously great talent at the studio, and it's completely disheartening that's been squandered by poor choices in direction by the leadership.

    The loot system cannot hold up shallow gameplay. Fix the loot, develop the gameplay. And for the love of all that is holy stop selling chests for real money while you know the chest system isn't working, it's completely scummy.
    Couldn't have said it better, myself. OMD:U has been turned into a gambling machine.
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