Advanced tutorial comments

I didn't play the advanced tutorial until just now, I believe it should be mandatory. 

Earlier today I was watching some guy on Twitch who was just new to OMDU after he stumbled upon it when looking for OMD2 in Steam. He had 2 friends playing with him.

There were many basics they didn't know about eg: What is this flashing Unchained thing? What does Unchained do? How to I activate it? I can have two guardians?! Where can I place the guardians. 

The tutorial's in-game voice over references itself the "survival tutorial", which I'm guessing is a legacy from pre v1.6. 

The advanced tutorial is great because:
- initally show lots of different traps,
- it gives an indication on barricading corners in kill boxes
- it uses the word killbox
- shows you how to place guardians
- shows how guardian aura heals you
- shows how to sell a trap

I did not see any reference to weavers as the prologue screen suggests. In fact I don't think I leveled up. 

I much prefer this to the drawn out prologue "normal" tutorial which is basically all about Max's skills and showing off maps. 

This game is mainly about trapping and as such I think this should be part of the forced tutorial, maybe at the expense of another map, or realistically these elements should be combined into the normal prologue tutorial maps. 

Other suggestions are:
- toggle trap selling on/off
- maybe have an AI team mate attacking one half of a big map, allowing some minions to leak past so Max (player) has to mop them
up. 
- AI team mate has a killbox setup, but not very effective, sell his traps and fix it (guided by voice over/place holders)

Comments

  • I get why the prologue/tutorial is skippable, but I agree, I really do think something that actually explains the game should be mandatory.
    Wiki Contributor: Juicearific - Got a wiki suggestion? Let me know.
    Welcome to Juicy's Midnight Assassination Service. You grab em, I'll stab em.
  • I'm with Juicy here, there are two kinds of players in OMDU right now, killbox builders and trap spammers. This is why half the of those who play think its too easy, and the other half think its too hard. Mandatory killbox lesson's would help this.
  • Are the radial comms explained anywhere? Because I think on matchmaking they can be very very useful.
  • Statboy said:
    I'm with Juicy here, there are two kinds of players in OMDU right now, killbox builders and trap spammers. This is why half the of those who play think its too easy, and the other half think its too hard. Mandatory killbox lesson's would help this.
    And let's be honest here. A short tutorial isn't going to kill the players building well already (sure, it's annoying, but how many of these people are going to not play the game because they have to do a tutorial ONCE?) - however it could really help out the others. Plus, it may even make it less frustrating for experienced players to play with them. I personally prefer to solo over using matchmaker (that's partially due to my love of solo, but still) - and that's partially because who knows what players I'm going to get.
    Wiki Contributor: Juicearific - Got a wiki suggestion? Let me know.
    Welcome to Juicy's Midnight Assassination Service. You grab em, I'll stab em.
  • @Timemaster - radial Comms...I don't think so.

    If anybody reading this hasn't played the tutorial (or just the advanced tutorial) in a while, would you be willing to do that and make some comments? Now you are experienced it is easier to see what the tutorial misses. 

    I don't foresee the tutorial changing anytime soon as game content is ever changing, but it would be nice. 
  • edited March 14
    yobbobear said:
    @Timemaster - radial Comms...I don't think so.

    If anybody reading this hasn't played the tutorial (or just the advanced tutorial) in a while, would you be willing to do that and make some comments? Now you are experienced it is easier to see what the tutorial misses. 

    I don't foresee the tutorial changing anytime soon as game content is ever changing, but it would be nice. 
    The basic tutorial they make you go through misses basically everything but the bare minimum required to play the game.  And i mean the BARE minimum.  It doesn't even teach you how to place guardians.

    The advanced tutorial teaches you how to place a guardian and goes into the very basics of making a killbox.  The problem is that it does nothing to teach you about resource management, dealing with multiple lanes, how different elements work, how enemy heroes work, how to detect and stop kobold bombers, etc.  The game is basically one big exercise in trial and error and looking up minutiae in item descriptions (like how fire damage works..... sort of).  Yes I know to place as many traps as I can to try and get combos and do the most damage.  But I have no idea what an effective setup looks like other than barricades and spikes.
  • Our general philosophy is that we should teach the bare minimum to play the game. 

    Learning how to build an effective killbox is the challenge of the game and not something that we want to focus on teaching. 

    When you teach chess, you teach what each piece does, not the meta and strategy associated with the game.
    Doug Houserman
    Robot Entertainment | Lead Balance Designer
  • ShadeDev said:
    Our general philosophy is that we should teach the bare minimum to play the game. 

    Learning how to build an effective killbox is the challenge of the game and not something that we want to focus on teaching. 

    When you teach chess, you teach what each piece does, not the meta and strategy associated with the game.
    I can understand and respect that but there are features and mechanics that don't revolve around the strategy of the game but rather the game experience which in my opinion should atleast be hinted, specially if there is an advanced tutorial. Things like:

    How to communicate with your teammates: Radial comms, chat, enable/disable sell traps.

    Option to enhance your experience: Show minions HP Bar, Quickcast, check who's trap is/see range of your traps.

    Utilities: Screenshots (maybe even Hide HUD), unstuck button, (maybe Tab and it's tabs too?).
  • ShadeDev said:
    When you teach chess, you teach what each piece does, not the meta and strategy associated with the game.
    Literally no.  At least, certainly not that simple.

    The entire point of teaching chess is to teach people basic strategy so that they can understand how to play a good game.  Things like why controlling the center of the board is important, common kill moves and how to avoid them, common ways to trap enemy pieces, etc.  There is a TON of meta and strategy that you teach people when they are learning to play chess.  You don't teach them the bazillion opening moves to watch out for and so on, but you teach them enough that they don't get clobbered by anyone who knows how to play.

    That doesn't mean you don't have a valid point.  I just think this is a really bad analogy.

    ShadeDev said:
    Learning how to build an effective killbox is the challenge of the game and not something that we want to focus on teaching. 

    This is a valid point, but the current tutorial still isn't perfect.  It could at least teach things like how enemy heroes work, how boss's function, etc.  I don't think that new players should have to learn what yellow enemies mean on the minimap through trial and error.
  • @shadedev I agree for basic tutorial. Do we really need one map per ability for Max? Do we really need only only one trap at a time?
  • Yea, I once took a few chess classes in my youth... and yes, we definately talked about what Will1 mentions. The "meta" and strategy was very much a part of the teaching. Bad analogy indeed.

    I can understand the decision to not show all the details, I've played my share of games where the developpers preffered this approach, but it is hardly the only legitimate one, and I'm far from convinced it is the best.
  • edited March 14
    I'm very much in agreement with @ShadeDev on this. Show, don't tell.  Though, there is definitely room for improvement in terms of introducing more core mechanics

    Personally, I'd rather see this done via:
    • An extension of the prologue that introduces Gabby and Blackpaw along with a few more key mechanics, like Guardian auras and Unchained. 
    • Remove the Advanced Tutorial in favor of proper documentation and/or single-topic video guides embedded in the dashboard.
    There are a lot of little bits and pieces that are impractical to learn by normal game play right now. For example:
    • What fire DoTs stack and which don't?
    • How do chill stacks work?
    • What counts as "snared"?
    • Why does Spike Wall do zero damage to large minions?
    • What are the frickin' stats on this hero?
    • Why won't these soldiers die?
    • And so on...
    But all that shouldn't be in a tutorial. I think a few little videos and some proper docs would be enough. I think all the game control stuff falls into this category as well (chat, comms, allow allies to sell, etc).
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