Map Par Times

edited March 15 in General Discussion
I am curious what both the players and Devs think the Par time is suppose to accomplish. Because currently, many maps have extremely strict par times and practically require you to kill the minions at the entrance of the spawn, where as some maps let you build killboxes halfway into the map and you are still able to safely reach par time by several minutes.

With the some maps being extremely strict and others..not being strict, I don't fully know which direction the Devs are wanting you to play the maps.

I personally think you should be given enough time to build a kill box anywhere on the map, even one next to the rift, and still be able to reach par time. On Crogon Keep (RL) you can reroute the minions quite a bit and still make par safely. But on Temple Graveyard (RL) you can barely make par killing them at spawn. Heck, I would bet that if you theoretically had infinite rift points on Temple Graveyard and just let the enemies on all the waves just walk into the rift, you actually wouldn't make par time haha.

Par times should only be meant for discouraging extensive rerouting of minions IMO, but currently many of the maps have far too strict of a par time preventing you from being creative at all with your kill box locations.

P.S. I believe it was patch 1.7 that actually changed some Par Times and Temple Graveyard being one of them. I know this because it was initially a Par Time of 13:30, but was changed to 15:45 or something like that. HOWEVER, like literally a day or two after I noticed the par time change (because it wasn't announced via patch notes as far as I was aware) it was switched back to 13:30 (at least on the NA servers) and there wasn't any update or anything via my steam dashboard. So it's as if they can change par times at any point and not require a patch/update to initiate it.
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Comments

  • edited March 22
    Also, with 1 of the more recent updates the par time on Eventide Fortress (RL) had it's par time drastically reduced to 19:45. I really don't know how to reach par time on this map now. Best I could do was around 20:45 so far. Really wish they wouldn't preform such drastic reductions on par time.

    I think I may be able to reach this new par times with a fast character like Midnight, but with slow characters like Oziel and Bionka...I just don't see how you can preform clean up in the early waves when having to deal with unstable rifts that spawn on the opposite side of the map.
    Post edited by Zarcos on
  • The par time is annoying... Its a feature on this game that I really just try to do once... A lot of map requires us to be at the door killing minions and now with some par time changes even when the players do that they don't get the par time which is really like "WTF".

    The par time should be something that let the players fight in a kill box instead of the gates of most maps.

    I agree that it is really something very odd on this game... On omd2 I've never worried about par time and still got the 5 skulls and now on this game it is crazy... and really not a welcome challenge.
  • I also think Par time should go.  It doesn't fit the game and counters the whole part of a well thought out kill box and combos.
  • In my opinion the par times are ridiculous. They restrict the player too much and don't encourage for creative thinking but rather "find how the devs did it and do it the same" which is absurd.
  • I never liked it because I'm kinda perfectionist and getting 4 stars seems the way to go.

    And that's due to them being a bit too focused for 3-man parties playing rather close to the spawns. Instead of trying to be something to prevent people doing too long pathing or just taking too much time in the breaks.

    Some solutions which most were already said before are:
    • Make last star achievable by both, score and timer.
    • Make par time, something like elite time but just as an extra (e. g +100 skulls)
    • Just make par time something easy to achieve keeping it as the 5th star (as it is in omd 1 and 2)
  • edited March 22
    I think par time is supposed to force you to vary your strategy on maps. Realistically, I think it's too tight on most maps, as I feel like if I kill stuff near a door (or at the very first killbox area available), I should have 10-20% leeway (I.E., 2 mins on a 10-min par map). The issue is that I have more like 20s. It's very doable if you can do a perfect (or nigh perfect) run, where nothing makes it past your killbox, but I think you should be able to relax a bit more, or build your killbox back a bit further. That's just me though.

    *edit* I would like to agree to a timed challenge mode tho, up everything's move and spawn speed and make par freakin hard. That'd be awesome.
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  • edited March 23
    Zarcos said:
    Also, with 1 of the more recent updates the par time on Eventide Fortress (RL) had it's par time drastically reduced to 19:45. I really don't know how to reach par time on this map now. Best I could do was around 20:45 so far. Really wish they wouldn't preform such drastic reductions on par time.
    If it helps I made video of Eventide in 1.8 with Zoey (before they buffed her this patch). I was playing around with the character for a guide and the video format to see what worked (spoiler this one wasn't great) since it had been a while since I recorded gameplay. The in game timer ran about 18:29, and you could do a lot better with a more optimal set up: 

    I don't think par time should be a requirement to get 5 star.

    Par time, as well as other possible challenges (such as limited trap quota/trap tier/account level), should be considered as a challenge mode which don't count as the completion of a map, but rather for extra challenge/rewards.

    Designing different challenge modes would require extensive testing from ROBOT, but I'd rather see them spending time on that instead of spending time on designing fake contents by restricting player's progression with different RNG/shop/grinding patterns
    I really enjoy strict par timers as someone that likes to speedrun games, and I get all too well it's not for everyone. If they got rid of the par time requirement for a normal run, and made deaths take away rift points (LIKE IT ALWAYS SHOULD HAVE), there would be a far greater emphasis on the meticulous construction of the killboxes which would be to the game's benefit. Make gnolls more aggressive, as it is now they're kind of a joke, and it's very bizarre how they can just leave through the rift and it doesn't count towards rift points. If anything enters the rift it should take away points, and this again makes setup more important!

    Then you could tackle a strict par time and other challenges in a multitude of ways. I know you've brought up a few ideas in some other threads Terry, and I'd just like to add another simple thing they could do. On each map, just have a checklist of challenges, that when completed gives another chest for their first clear. Similar to the philosophy behind the 5 star chest not needing to be done with everyone, this challenge checklist would fit right in. A Strict Par time, a high score challenge, completing the map with very few traps, and maybe one more thing that's map dependent, like clearing a fire stage with only ice traps slotted, clearing another with no floor traps, or simply not having barricades equipped.

    Doing that would add Actual content, not gating trap tiers, which is such a terrible long term plan that will kill the game for a lot of dedicated players while discouraging new ones at the same time (Really an all you can orc up gameplan).

    Edit: Some grammars
    Post edited by ProtoZealott on
  • @ProtoZealott

    I don't like gnolls from the first game (didn't play the second) and I'm not particularly fond of dying being more of a punishment than it currently is either.

    I don't think really specific challenges would work because the traps are not easily available to do such things.  If you don't have high level ice traps for example you wouldn't be able to do one of your examples.
  • Will1 said:
    @ProtoZealott

    I don't like gnolls from the first game (didn't play the second) and I'm not particularly fond of dying being more of a punishment than it currently is either.

    I don't think really specific challenges would work because the traps are not easily available to do such things.  If you don't have high level ice traps for example you wouldn't be able to do one of your examples.
    Making the challenges achievements though would work. Not all achievements should be available from the getgo, so making a challenge like "Clearing avalanche with only ice traps and hogarth or tundra" Would be great as an achievement.
    Wiki Contributor: Juicearific - Got a wiki suggestion? Let me know.
    Welcome to Juicy's Midnight Assassination Service. You grab em, I'll stab em.
  • Just attempted The Baths (RL) and quite literally killed everything at spawn. Was just a few seconds slow killing an unstable rift which prolonged a wave by 2-3 seconds, but I was still slow reaching par by 7 seconds. This clearly needs to be fixed. Also, the Banquet Hall (RL) suffers from a similar problem. Didn't kill everything at spawn...but was certainly not slow at it and behind par by about 10 seconds. I mean come on. Seems like they want me to just use floor traps to kill them at spawn...which doesn't seem likely.
  • Zarcos said:
    Just attempted The Baths (RL) and quite literally killed everything at spawn. Was just a few seconds slow killing an unstable rift which prolonged a wave by 2-3 seconds, but I was still slow reaching par by 7 seconds. This clearly needs to be fixed. Also, the Banquet Hall (RL) suffers from a similar problem. Didn't kill everything at spawn...but was certainly not slow at it and behind par by about 10 seconds. I mean come on. Seems like they want me to just use floor traps to kill them at spawn...which doesn't seem likely.
    use big game hunter ballista to kill unstable rift. You should able to finish the waves a lot faster. Technically, the kill box is right at the spawn. There is a guardian there.
    So this is how we add small words under our post/comments.
  • We will be loosening up many par times in the next patch.
    Doug Houserman
    Robot Entertainment | Lead Balance Designer
  • edited March 23
    I would agree that Par Times don't motivate people to set up good kill boxes. Killing everything as they come out the gates isn't really what the game is about. Perhaps Par times should be about how many combos you get, and not about actual time at all. So, for example if the team gets twenty 8x combos in a game, they get 4 stars (numbers can be tried and tested by the community to get them 'right'). This would allow players to use the traps, and enjoy the GAME - and maybe even get more people working as a team (radical, I know!!).
  • I would agree that Par Times don't motivate people to set up good kill boxes. Killing everything as they come out the gates isn't really what the game is about. Perhaps Par times should be about how many combos you get, and not about actual time at all. So, for example if the team gets twenty 8x combos in a game, they get 4 stars (numbers can be tried and tested by the community to get them 'right'). This would allow players to use the traps, and enjoy the GAME - and maybe even get more people working as a team (radical, I know!!).
    Making it combo or score based limits freedom almost as much as par times, just on the opposite spectrum. Personally, I'd hate if the 5* rating per map was tied to either of them.
  • This may have already been suggested by someone else, but I think the fifth star should be awarded for no one dying.
  • I've completed all the battlegrounds to 5*


    Only Orcatraz really turns into whack-a-mole solo, and for most other maps, if you route 2 gates into the 1 killbox, that killbox ought to become more leak-proof than 2 gate kill boxes, and you should be able to leave the killbox and character kill the end of the wave whilst the killbox kills the front of the wave, perhaps with a couple of supporting traps to make combos at the gate, ie 5* solutions are not as cut and dried as people are making out.  Perhaps the fun-police designer at robot can stick a few more grates in at gates to make more obvious, its not like they haven't stuck them in 50 otherwise fun killbox places already.


    Lastly, par time is hard for lower level players, and is a sufficient "private" challenge.

    Leaderboard is the challenge for combo oriented players, and is a good "public" challenge.


  • The "Par Times" are such a payne in the orc for me. I don't like them, in my opinion it's not a challenge to go kill the minions brainless in front of the gates. It prevents from typing tactics during the game, because it's a time loss. Please change it, delete the "Par Time" is what I prefer.
  • Also, my main point wasn't that par times were impossible or that I couldn't reach them...because I know they are possible because I can reach them with the right character and set up. My point was that some maps quite literally require you to kill all or most of the minions before they even have a chance of reaching your kill box. Some require you kill most of them at the spawn, which is even more lame. Par times shouldn't be so strict to prevent creative kill box locations that may yield higher combos.
  • The par time is annoying... Its a feature on this game that I really just try to do once... A lot of map requires us to be at the door killing minions and now with some par time changes even when the players do that they don't get the par time which is really like "WTF".

    The par time should be something that let the players fight in a kill box instead of the gates of most maps.

    I agree that it is really something very odd on this game... On omd2 I've never worried about par time and still got the 5 skulls and now on this game it is crazy... and really not a welcome challenge.
    What!? We musn't have played the same OMD2... I really having to rush for par on many maps, especially in the normal difficulty.

    You DO remember why it was easy to get par on Nightmare, though, right? It was because the game started as soon as the game opened up. You had to choose your traps right away and go run to place traps! Now? All the traps are pre-loaded, and you have a ton of time to place everything before the timer even starts.

    Some par times may be tweaked, but overall OMDU removed a lot of the difficulty of OMD2. Dying no longer matters (no rift point loss, the time delay usually is meaningless, and when haste is an issue you can just buyback) and Z... Z... frigging Z. You get all the time in the world to prepare at the start, and then many times per map it'll give you the time you need.

    Getting 5 stars on some maps was quite the frustrating experience, but par is part of the challenges that one can then be satisfied of attaining. If you are just out for the hero chests, why even care how many stars you get?
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