Sabotage? Nope.

MetratonMetraton Member
edited April 19 in Suggestion Box
1. Battles take ages.
One fight on Baths, 8 wave, took more than 14+ wave map, because of 30-second between wave windows. While the reward, practical reward per time spent - is way below anything comparable. You could probably play War Mage for more profit.(And fun, fwiw)

2. Pointless gameplay.
Maybe some higher-up games and difficulties will be more interesting, but choosing some random nonsense EVERY wave... Yaaaawn. I assume that, on Master-RL maps, with full-team coordination - a properly timed combo can be devastating, but let's talk realistic. Let's talk about people, who wonder should they even finish Placement. Should they waste their time daily doing this stuff? How Professional will these people be?

Maybe speed things up, allow an option to make the game randomly select cards every wave and make 10 seconds time between waves.

3. Waste of time.
Okay, as I said, the only carrot I see in this mode(besides the bearded veterans, who have all chests from all heroes on apprentice, who are bored from Endless and who 5* a weekly on first try, and therefore want a pointless mode within their favorite game to kill some time. How many players are these? 0.5%?) - is daily quest. Because, yes, a Rift Lord chest is a solid reward. Except for... for a daily, so far it required 1-2 runs of normal maps. Where you are in control. Where you can do more dailies than one. Where you can get a hero reward chest. I hope you get the idea.
Meanwhile, a Sabotage daily requires you to WIN 2 games. Gee, that's a nice incentive. That's almost as ridiculous as Overwatch's weekly boxes, except for that is a separate game with clear PvP intent. Here, to play 4-5+ random, blind, long Sabotage games daily - just to get the chest?

Okay, okay, before the geniuses of Y2K tell me "if you don't want to play it, I can go fu... you don't have to", I want to ask the devs - do THEY want people to play Sabotage? I assume - yes. Correct me if I'm wrong. How about you make your carrot a little more... fresh, and change the daily requirement from "WIN 2 games" to "PARTICIPATE in 2 games".
Then, frankly, I wouldn't give a flying duck. Who I play with, who I play against. I mean, no griefing, I just would know what I am doing and for what reason. Maybe, "maybe" I will start to enjoy this new mode in the process. No promises.
If the Devs do not want people to play Sabotage, then could I please have my daily 50 XP back? It was kind of neat to see all 3 quests completed...

4. Balance.
Now, I will not even try to comprehend the whole scale of RNG of lootable consumables and their proper execution. I don't play OMD for that.
But I will point out that hero metas are there. Being able to FREELY select a hero... well, inb4 "best hero for Sudden Death" threads. And woopie scooby doo, people will take some Tundras, Ivys, Bionkas, Maxes and whatever else can KEEP the ONESHOTTING(almost) enemies away from the rift for that one sweet second more. Because THAT'S SO ENJOYABLE! That's even better than Endless, right? Oshi...
Have fun playing some Midnight\Smolder\Dobbin and stuff like that. Even Cygnus will probably cringe.

Maybe make games much more difficult by default? So that you were not meant to even make the last wave? And if you both "do" finish the last wave, it's a draw? Shake hands, /gg? Oh, I'm such a kommunist...
For all I know - Rift Lord maps will be like that. Not sure I want to find out though.

How about having a random hero being selected for Queue-grade Sabotage? With all the other randomness, how worse can it get?


5. Matchmaking.
Alright, I don't know about Yours Truly, but seeing a relatively clueless player from my friendlist having Silver, while being matched with 15-25(and I'm 81) account level players as my first game... Is that supposed to sell me your new game mode? Or make me look forward to actually having a Rank?
What, I have to suffer through 5 worthless games to be "kind of recognized" that I probably won't do well with people with T1-3 traps and next to zero knowledge of their class?

If T2-3 trap player is Silver, what should I expect? Bronze is for T1 Apprentices? When does Gold start? I don't think "Skill Rating" pertains to this semi-P2W grind-based F2P game, so it's not like a skillful Level 20 can really do any good, when Trap Tier is involved.

I was worried how Sabotage will work in relation to Survival, and this doesn't seem like a feasible approach.

If you want any remotely worthwhile PvP - how about scaling everyone to level 1, weekly style(because I'm pretty sure I did 5x the damage of others and outdpsed even Bionka as Smolder not because I'm a good player. Hell, I couldn't complete Playing with Fire without antagonizing the whole toxic Discus community!), making every trap level 1, giving the same traps to everyone(or maybe different traps to different people, to promote variety and communication).


And for the love of Riftmaker, when does the Premium Shop come out? To think that I actually looked forward to April 19...


P.S.:

https://gyazo.com/4649f718420f9237e16a302709c90633
Woah, what a nice capture! Guess I should be glad I didn't do more than one Sabotage game.

Sorry, Robot, my nerves are reserved for getting to steady Platinum in an already mentioned game. Not really looking forward to it in OMDU.
How about a Quick Play instead?
Post edited by Harmonia on

Comments

  • Firstly I think the new gamemode is fun and frustating.

    1. Battles don't really take ages. The easiest map baths does most of the time end in sudden death. Most matches take 15-20 minutes.
    2. Boring, sure your opinion
    3. Rewards few a far between just the quests, true but as much as survival gives me now. I don't really need rewards or care since I unlocked mostly everything.
    4. Balance you say some heroes are designed for long games, some for short. But surely that is a great difference in tactics picking risky or safe heroes. I have currently played most heroes and they are all playable. If you want to spice up the game pick Hogarth.
    5. The matchmaking is joke not around peak hours. Premades vs starter heroes. But there's nothing they can do about that until the fanbase grows.

    Finally I think if you were going to nerf something nerf the haymaker. It's a needed trap for every map in sagotage. Since runners are sent every wave.

    Also you will probably play this gamemode anyway when you run out of chests.
  • JuicyJuicy Member, Master Founder, Early Access
    I can't speak to all these things, especially since I fall into that hardened veteran category you poke fun at ;P.

    Anyways, I agree it should be participate in 2 games. I always to think in terms of my brother who has 2 kids, how much time he gets to put into gaming. There's a chance he wouldn't even be able to complete the quest, which is lame. Participate in 2 (heck, even if it ups to 3) matches would be better. It's more guaranteed.

    Personally I do actually like the gameplay, and IMO it's a separate mode so the time investment doesn't really matter.

    As for matchmaking, you'll have to give it some time to sort it out. It goes based off an MMR system, of which  everyone is the same from the start. Soon people will get MMR's and they'll balance out, but until then it's going to pair every level of player together so long as their MMRs are similar.
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  • 1.  Games range anywhere from 20 seconds to probably around 20 minutes (with maybe a rare occasion going longer).  I have not even gotten close to the upper end, my longest has probably been 12 minutes.  That is not long at all, and quite honestly, I see a lot of these games ending sooner rather than later just due to the nature of the game and RNG.  Which isn't a bad thing.

    2.  Sorry, are you playing this game professionally?  It's a party mode.  Party.  Fun.  Don't want to play a party mode, then don't.

    3.  Trying to win matches will have people that play care about their matches.  Participate leads to people logging in to the game and then standing around doing nothing throughout because they want their participation reward.  They want people to want to play this game because it is fun, not because it's an easy solution to getting a chest.

    4.  It's pretty much impossible to min/max a mode when the mode itself relies upon an incredible amount of RNG.  You can think you have the perfect combo for any situation, and then bam, Wildcard.  Something you would know if you played more than one match.

    5.  Woah, 5 matches to get ranked, if only other games would be as easy going with this.  Getting ranked in other games requires a lot more time and effort than probably less than an hour total of gameplay in this one.  Once again, you should probably play more than one game before you complain about a system you never gave a chance.

    Premium Shoppe has been talked about repeatedly, when it is coming out has been talked about repeatedly.  Just to help you out though... next patch.
  • DireshadowDireshadow Member, Master Founder, Early Access
    I like the game play, when your team mates are not swearing at you, and calling you names for playing after you have been at work for sixteen hours and just wanted to get the daily done quick, but were so tired that you made mistakes. So I definitely agree that Participate in 2 would be much better.

    As for growing the fan base ... It won't grow if it is toxic, and that has been my unfortunate experience. It was that way in the alpha, and it hasn't seemed to change with Sabotage.

    Why can't we have friendly competition? Is it the end of the world if you lose one match? I enjoy variety, and pvp(ish) competition, but I don't play a game to remind myself how hateful our society has become. I play games to get away from that.
  • FishzorFishzor Member
    Sabotage is brand new and there is room for improvement but I like what it's about. A couple of things I'd like to see though:

    Gameplay
    1) The actual "Sabotage" of your enemy team feels like a shot in the dark and the results are largely unseen. This would be more entertaining and possibly help reduce the number of sudden death rounds on easily defendable maps if there was a way to see what happens either live or via highlight afterwards, preferably live so one could make adjustments on the next wave. But do do that, do you half the number of waves and alternate? Do you have one delegate messing with their team and the other 2 defending at a time? I'd say test and see, but make the actual sabotage more interactive and engaging. 

    Matchmaking
    2) Most games with a competitive mode have some sort of basic entry requirement. I had a teammate the other day who made the "no traps" rookie mistake for crying out loud. So while I'm not a fan of the ban systems and various requirements most MOBAs have, I also don't want to play a competitive match with someone who doesn't know how to select traps yet. 

    Thanks for the new game mode!
  • ZaghaaraZaghaara Member, Moderator, Robot Entertainment
    Thank you all for your feedback and suggestions :)
    French Community Manager
  • PowershardPowershard Member
    edited April 23
    I am now announcing that until Robot fixes their matchmaker, I am no longer going to do queues with random people ever again.

    The only reason I ever lose a game unfairly in my opinion (95% of the case), is because of one of the following reasons:

    1) The average level is unfair to low levels even when balanced to compensate my carriness. They simply can't kill anything and I can't be everywhere for them, even holding one lane out of 5 gates is too much of a task for them.

    2) The skill level is not taken into consideration. I am bundled up against premade lvl 60+ teams with random people who have literally began to play the game today. They don't know anything about how to play, causing the team to lose because of this "skill" differential. I am bored to tell in every game that barricade redirects enemies or that they just should try use them.

    3) Whenever a player disconnects, their rotting corpse spawning near rift not only boosts the enemy waves but also destroys any nearby barricades.

    Suggestions / Requests to fix the problems:
    Make a noob bracket. Level 39 and under players play against each other. Period. This is because they most likely don't know how to play the game.
    And the level difference/average will be too big of a gap if there is one level 100 player and two level 10 players.
    Whatever 30+ the average turns out to be, it is too much for the two other players and their traps to handle.

    This bracket is essential. No questions. No arguments. I only wonder how you let it out in its current broken state to begin with. :(

    Then, make a disconnected player disappear, their hero does not need to exist to feed the enemy if the player is not in, dying over and over and over again.

    Until the fixes are made:
    I will be doing only premades that favor my team if I am to ever play sabotage again.
    This means I will have two level 90+ players and one level 1-10 player in my team whenever possible.
    The low level player will be there to reduce the enemy minion levels and to build barricades whenever possible and also to play a support role of stunning afar with maximillian, not dealing any damage while the two high players will carry out the maps.

    Support abilities of stunning, knocking etc. will be used by the low level players as they are not scaled with account level, the team getting full benefit of having a third player. Heroes that can be accepted are Maximillian (stunner), Gabriel (reset, mesmerize), Tundra (ranged freeze), Stinkeye (slow), Ivy (knockback).
  • If the current system is "Broken" then play with 3 level 90s. There is no need to use exploits to win.

    Also I'm guessing you came across one of these "teams". Which is why you're here.
    So let's discuss tactics to beat them. I've played a few times against such tactics so I'll share my winning tactic.

    Teamwork and luck mainly. On corridors it's easier to win draw their resources thin. Since they are probably using Bionka and no speed pads. The amount of lanes and heavy minions should force their hand. Obviously use cards in horrible combos.
    Another tactic to win is to pick knockback heroes to beat them at their game. Temper, Bionka and Ivy. All of those should last longer than two buffed heroes and one noob afk/dying in sudden death.

    But please don't join the sour unskilled players on the top. I know the matchmaking isn't perfect but it is work in progress.
  • DireshadowDireshadow Member, Master Founder, Early Access
    I have been thinking about this, while not playing Sabotage, because I was told in my last game to never play the game mode again. I reacted to that comment (and other not nearly as nice ones) by trolling, which is just as bad, so I imposed a self ban.

    The problem I see is that some people want to play the game mode, but don't want to play it competitively, and some people think it is a professional e-sport.

    My suggestion would be to break it up into two categories, and have both available.
    1) A ranked system, that has barriers to entry, and placement matches. This mode would have strict matchmaking requirements.
    2) A casual system, that should be for fun, and full of people that don't care if they lose a match or twenty.

    Both modes would need to be very well defined, and you are still going to have the toxic players in my opinion, but it may lessen the toxicity, and open the game mode to players who may not otherwise play it.

    I honestly like the game mode. However, I won't play it because it isn't fun for me to constantly worry about making a mistake because it may ruin someone else's experience or ranking. 
  • JuicyJuicy Member, Master Founder, Early Access
    I am now announcing that until Robot fixes their matchmaker, I am no longer going to do queues with random people ever again.

    The only reason I ever lose a game unfairly in my opinion (95% of the case), is because of one of the following reasons:

    1) The average level is unfair to low levels even when balanced to compensate my carriness. They simply can't kill anything and I can't be everywhere for them, even holding one lane out of 5 gates is too much of a task for them.

    2) The skill level is not taken into consideration. I am bundled up against premade lvl 60+ teams with random people who have literally began to play the game today. They don't know anything about how to play, causing the team to lose because of this "skill" differential. I am bored to tell in every game that barricade redirects enemies or that they just should try use them.

    3) Whenever a player disconnects, their rotting corpse spawning near rift not only boosts the enemy waves but also destroys any nearby barricades.

    Suggestions / Requests to fix the problems:
    Make a noob bracket. Level 39 and under players play against each other. Period. This is because they most likely don't know how to play the game.
    And the level difference/average will be too big of a gap if there is one level 100 player and two level 10 players.
    Whatever 30+ the average turns out to be, it is too much for the two other players and their traps to handle.

    This bracket is essential. No questions. No arguments. I only wonder how you let it out in its current broken state to begin with. :(

    Then, make a disconnected player disappear, their hero does not need to exist to feed the enemy if the player is not in, dying over and over and over again.

    Until the fixes are made:
    I will be doing only premades that favor my team if I am to ever play sabotage again.
    This means I will have two level 90+ players and one level 1-10 player in my team whenever possible.
    The low level player will be there to reduce the enemy minion levels and to build barricades whenever possible and also to play a support role of stunning afar with maximillian, not dealing any damage while the two high players will carry out the maps.

    Support abilities of stunning, knocking etc. will be used by the low level players as they are not scaled with account level, the team getting full benefit of having a third player. Heroes that can be accepted are Maximillian (stunner), Gabriel (reset, mesmerize), Tundra (ranged freeze), Stinkeye (slow), Ivy (knockback).
    I can't help you with #3, but you'll find more info here: https://forums.orcsmustdie.com/discussion/12707/make-sabotage-ranking-system-more-clear#latest about #1 and #2.

    The TL;DR version is this: The current ranking system needs time to correctly place everyone, and the more data it has the better (players, in this case). Skill level is being considered, but everyone is starting at the same skill level (Despite that obviously not being true, that's how the system works. And it works great if a bajillion people are already placed, but it takes time if they aren't.)

    Wiki Contributor: Juicearific - Got a wiki suggestion? Let me know.
    Welcome to Juicy's Midnight Assassination Service. You grab em, I'll stab em.
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