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  • CdrKeenCdrKeen Member, Apprentice Founder
    At some point, it's more frustrating for high level players than it was. The only chance to get gibs is to earn chests with double traps. But when you nearly got every chest, there is still only 1 to 2 chests a day, nothing more. So there is no way to get gibs in a higher amount.

    No chests, no gibs, no traps and stuff - only daily deals and sabotage items.
    pogo!
  • Neron189Neron189 Member
    Throne room bug still remains.Thanks for the lost game guys :D
  • ShadeDevShadeDev Member, Robot Entertainment, Early Access, Apprentice Founder, Featured Developer
    Neron189 said:
    Throne room bug still remains.Thanks for the lost game guys :D
    We reduced it significantly, but it can still happen in rare scenarios.  Sorry about that.

    We are looking into a more elaborate fix for a future patch.
    Doug Houserman
    Robot Entertainment | Lead Balance Designer
  • JacowboyJacowboy Member, Early Access
    I'm not so sure about that... just look at all the people complaining about getting paired with "bad players" in survival... People don't like losing, in general... sure the ranking system might make it worse, but wthout it, you'd still have premades and you'd still have a lot of competitive spirit just because people like to win, imo.
  • SeanPoeSeanPoe Member, Early Access
    Jacowboy said:
    I'm not so sure about that... just look at all the people complaining about getting paired with "bad players" in survival... People don't like losing, in general... sure the ranking system might make it worse, but wthout it, you'd still have premades and you'd still have a lot of competitive spirit just because people like to win, imo.
    A hidden matchmaker rating could be used instead of the public leaderboard system.  That way players still get matched with similarly skilled players (or as close as possible based on who's in queue) but it would eliminate the overly competitive feel of the game mode.  People would obsess less about rankings and losing, be willing to try more fun strategies instead of going full meta every game, and be more willing to solo-queue or queue with their lower-ranked friends. 

  • Jacowboy said:
    I'm not so sure about that... just look at all the people complaining about getting paired with "bad players" in survival... People don't like losing, in general... sure the ranking system might make it worse, but wthout it, you'd still have premades and you'd still have a lot of competitive spirit just because people like to win, imo.
    I got you point, and yeah people don't like to loose in general.

    But talking about Survival (Which is called battlegrounds now) I think it might be hard to loose the entire match because of one or two bad players in that mode.

     Getting 5 stars in other hand might be the real challenge when playing with randoms. But that players only really need to get 5 stars once to get the chest reward, I believe it is not intended to be something easy to achieve in special with randoms. I think 5 star is intended for parties or solo.

    And that it might be hard to really get from 25 to 0 in a match a battleground match, I don't believe it is a common thing. Maybe it is when people are trying a map for the first time, but replaying it is each time easier.

    But loosing a match in Battleground does not punish players, people just spend sometime trying it. While loosing in Sabotage punishes players a lot in the rank system and in rewards.

    And for last there are people that complain about get paired with "bad players" in battlegrounds but it has not being something common recently, I mostly see complains about sabotage on both steam and official forum.

    The reading was extended tho and not only about that, but I really appreciate your feedback on my feedback :D
  • You do get punished pretty harshly for losses in sabo. On average I see it takes about 6+ wins to make up for 1 loss. I mean, we lose about 40+ rank spots for 1 loss and gain about 5-10 per win if you're lucky. That ultimately takes the fun out of it, and has isolated people from grouping with people they don't know; even in my guild. The team I play with has roles, load-outs, and strategies worked out for maps. Why solo or group with someone you don't know if they aren't familiar with the map and you have to teach them or try to carry them in a mode that it's very difficult to do?

    Mario Kart is an individual competitive mode, a single player vs. other single players, however, sabotage is 3v3. It's like comparing apples to oranges. In Mario you can do your own thing to win but not so much in sabotage, you need to work together. I don't know how this issue can be corrected, because if you want the mode to be fun and something people don't really care about I would remove the ranking system all together. However, then there's literally nothing left for the high levels to really do or work towards. No idea.

    Something I was thinking about though that could fill a niche for people that solo queue is that you could have different ranking systems. A leaderboard for solo, 2-man, and 3-man groups? I have no idea if that's feasible and just throwing it out there. I only suggest that because survival mode has 1, 2, and 3 player leaderboards.
  • I still think that the best way to solve the problem would be to have a level requirement for sabotage.
    The problem is not getting paired with low level player, the problems lies mostly in getting paired with player who just started.

    they don`t know the map because they never saw it, 
    they don`t know kamikaze because they never encountered them
    and 3 minutes is a short time to explain

    Normally when I can a guy that has at least blue trap, it goes pretty well, at least it's a close game

    Meaning I don`t loose at the first sapper that come out
    or on wave 2 because i`m the only one holding the choke point
    or because I spent everything on cades (since i'm the only putting them up)
    • It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious.
  • @MericaMadman ,

    I see your point, it is a nice one but I like to compare it to Mario Kart because it was what the devs  used compare with Sabotage  when it came. It is only to compare the items, chaos and how gaming changed it should be sometimes.

    When I point out Mario kart it was about the  "Holding cards" Tactic that has no down side currently and not about the ranking system. :D
     
    Sorry if my feedback is not clear enough in that part.

    Thank you for coming and ad more for this discussion.
    I also like @SeanPoe point of view.

    @CremoAcanthis Although many players have suggested and pointed that out I think it is a hard decision for robot... It is almost like the mandatory tutorial. When it wasn't mandatory a lot of player asked it to be. When it became mandatory as soon as patch 2.0 came out a lot of players said it should not be. Maybe putting a level requirement wall would creep the mode population even more, maybe not.


    I hope the devs can get all this and future feedback tho and get to reasonable solution for all of that, because as it currently is I think it just creeps the game and this mode population :(
  • Oh, I don't think that "holding cards" should be removed. The cards you get for the most part are really RNG and it's a huge pool to pull from too. So, to have some control and synergy with other people helps to coordinate and "hold cards" if someone gets something decent. I believe the issue to be "possibly" more of a social issue vs. game design issue. Meaning it's a 3v3 mode that requires you to coordinate with your group. Not roll the dice and solo queue even though you can. 

    I also honestly don't get mad if we lose from the other team coordinating Swifty with stun or dance. I'm more mad at myself for not placing ballistas or preparing to counter it. 

    Furthermore, you don't want to empower an RNG system even more, it'll be like watching a bunch of monkeys hump a football. Unless you're into that kind of thing  :)

  • But talking about Survival (Which is called battlegrounds now) I think it might be hard to loose the entire match because of one or two bad players in that mode.
    It has gone back to being called survival again XD
    Keep it secret, Keep it safe.
    New? Here are some Game Tipz.
  • Oh, I don't think that "holding cards" should be removed. The cards you get for the most part are really RNG and it's a huge pool to pull from too.
    What would be the point of having "Scroll of the Empty Rift" if they forced you to use it or lose it right? "Holding Cards" is not the issue, team coordination is KEY!
  • SeanPoeSeanPoe Member, Early Access
    SenatorBird's idea was never to remove the ability to hold cards.  His idea was to add some small drawback to it so it's not always the best strategy like it is right now.  Put as simply as possible, his idea was to make it so you could only pick new cards if you already used your cards from the previous wave.  You would still have the option to hold a card if you wanted to.  This would prevent the scenario where you can potentially 'upgrade' your held card each wave.  It would also punish players that forget to play their 'bad' cards because they'll miss the ability to pick a new card on the next wave.  It would also have the added benefit of making teams play more cards as they hunt for a good card to hold unlike right now where the ideal strategy is often to deliberately not send cards if they will have no impact (because it denies the other team XP and gold).  There's lots of very good reasons to implement a system like SenatorBird suggested. 

  • LeifybearLeifybear Member
    until the bionka nerf goes back i'm done playing this game. the fact that I saved skulls for 2 weeks to get 1 character who was super slow but did high damage and now does the same amount of damage as anyone else and still goes slow. she now has nothing fun or worthwhile to play not even on the baths.
  • LeifybearLeifybear Member
    I wish this game could just be pve then it would be fun

  • SeanPoeSeanPoe Member, Early Access
    Leifybear said:
    until the bionka nerf goes back i'm done playing this game. the fact that I saved skulls for 2 weeks to get 1 character who was super slow but did high damage and now does the same amount of damage as anyone else and still goes slow. she now has nothing fun or worthwhile to play not even on the baths.
    For what it's worth, there's currently a bug with Bionka's AoE damage.  It's not supposed to be that bad. 
  • Leifybear said:
    I wish this game could just be pve then it would be fun

    Yeah just pretend that sagotage doesn't exist I did the same for siege a year ago. I pretended it didn't exist so much that it went away.
  • JacowboyJacowboy Member, Early Access
    Leifybear said:
    I wish this game could just be pve then it would be fun

    Yeah just pretend that sagotage doesn't exist I did the same for siege a year ago. I pretended it didn't exist so much that it went away.
    Damn dude... could you please pretend I'm a millionaire next? coul use the cash :p

    Also about the whole "holding cards" thing, I'm okay with that because it's a strat... IF you hold cards, then by definition you're not sending stuff to the ennemy team, thereby giving them more chances of holding out against you, or even winning... so it's sort of a risk/reward thing... I think that's valid.
  • MericaMadmanMericaMadman Member
    edited May 18
    Something that we're seeing in sabotage is that heavy minions are MUCH harder to kill (almost unkillable) and we get backed up constantly in the early wave rounds. I know that in RL minions were made much harder in comparison to early level maps, so I'm not sure if our levels being 88-100 has an effect on this somehow. This is direct contrast to what the patch notes said... early waves were suppose to be made easier because most of the sabotage wins were really decided on your early game trap defense on some maps. If this is done to allow lowbies a chance to play against experienced players then you'll see it exploited by smurf accounts. One smurf with 2 higher levels.
    So to follow this up... it's Baths and Falling Folly where we're noticing the minions are almost unkillable (early). On the other maps we haven't noticed tremendous difficulty (early). It can be managed with a lower level hero to lower the overall average of the minion scaling but they aren't going to do anything in the game, and isn't fun for them.

    I have no idea, but would it be better to have a flat hero level / minion level versus a variable hero level based system for sabotage? Maybe requiring people to be also level 40+ or even the level of the map where it's introduced into survival. It's definitely not fun for an experienced player to be grouped with, and teach a level 5 how to defend on a map they never saw. Then, be forced to have to try to carry them because they have T1-3 traps. I know we stopped solo queuing because we were getting randoms that never some maps before.
    Post edited by MericaMadman on
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