Release 2.3 for PC - Deadeye

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Comments

  • ShadeDevShadeDev Member, Robot Entertainment, Early Access, Apprentice Founder, Featured Developer
    Lemartes said:
    DominoE said:
    No offense, but it honestly just sounds like you're salty over a hero you like or are dependent on being nerfed. You don't buy the "bug thing." Okay. I don't buy that Smolder was beating your Stinkeye in damage in your little group. Even if that's true, it was likely because of either account level differences, or whoever was playing him went with the wrong weaver upgrades. Yes, there is a right and wrong for a significant (as in, approximately 100% or more) damage boost with him. And there still will be even after this patch, unless there's a hidden change to how his Wrath totems work that's not mentioned in the patch notes.

    Also, if you really want to say that no one was complaining about Stinkeye doing too much damage, which is already a spurious claim to make, you should check the Steam forums.

    You have prolly just never seen a good Smolder player.

    And no not salty at all - I actually play most of the chars and thought they were all in a pretty good place (Slight tweaks needed here and there but not 30%).

    Stinkeye filled a role - like Bionka did.  Some players want a slower playstyle and not run around the map - not everyone wants to play midnight.  They were both high damage but slow.  Now both useless as there dmg is lower than everyone else but they still are slow and other negatives.

    Not to mention the dmg screen isn't really indicative of overall usefulness.  Im sure there's lot of over-damage computed, or one player can be on a lane with different mobs.

    Its all good.  The steam forums will move on the next hero now they think is OP because they are still losing and the nerf/buff will continue.  I vote midnight next.  40% across the board - she will be top dmg in most games now.
    For what it is worth, Stinkeye's attack totem got a 50-100% damage buff in patch 2.2.  In patch 2.1 and earlier, his attack totem was not scaling with his battle level.

    Prior to the fix, we were seeing Stinkeye's performance in a good spot.  After the fix, he shot way above all other characters by a very large margin.

    That being said, I don't want to nerf him into the ground.  These changes should bring him back to his 2.1 performance.  If he is too weak or unused, we will certainly make further adjustments.
    Doug Houserman
    Robot Entertainment | Lead Balance Designer
  • LemartesLemartes Member, Early Access, Apprentice Founder
    Thanks for the explanation.  I just hope you didn't 'Bionka' him.

    He does do a lot of damage now but I didn't notice him way above the other DPS unless stacking Arcane.
  • apinapin Member, War Mage Founder
    xpendersx said:
    hope the "metal grates" on crogon keep wont prevent us from funneling all the orcs in one lane... the endless version would suck balls then.
    I am afraid they fucked up another map :(
    First and only CZ&SK funsite of OMD series http://orcs-must-die.cz

  • ShadeDevShadeDev Member, Robot Entertainment, Early Access, Apprentice Founder, Featured Developer
    apin said:
    xpendersx said:
    hope the "metal grates" on crogon keep wont prevent us from funneling all the orcs in one lane... the endless version would suck balls then.
    I am afraid they fucked up another map :(
    You will not be able to funnel minions into one lane.

    You're probably wondering "why does Robot remove popular strategies?"

    I know that the perception is that we make changes because you are playing a way we don't want you to play.  This is only half correct.  The important part of the answer is why we don't want you to play this way.

    In general, we think there is a healthy curve around player innovation and barricade effectiveness in rerouting minions.  The longer you make the enemy's path relative to coin cost and risk, the more impressive the strategy...  

    However, at a certain point, this begins to flip and become mandatory and hidden. The impact the barricade setup has on the difficulty of the level is so substantial that it requires us to either make the level harder, which would only further punish players who are unaware of this mandatory strategy, or adjust barricade permutations, which brings barricade effectiveness back into the realm of encouraging innovation.

    Every change we make is to improve the game for our players.  We are certainly not trying to punish them out of spite, although I know it may feel that way.  We still believe that these changes are for the best, but we hear your criticisms.  We are trying to be more conservative and only tackle the issue when it is a significant offender.

    I hope this helps.
    Doug Houserman
    Robot Entertainment | Lead Balance Designer
  • xpendersxxpendersx Member
    edited July 23
  • ShadeDev said:
    apin said:
    xpendersx said:
    hope the "metal grates" on crogon keep wont prevent us from funneling all the orcs in one lane... the endless version would suck balls then.
    I am afraid they fucked up another map :(
    You will not be able to funnel minions into one lane.

    You're probably wondering "why does Robot remove popular strategies?"

    I know that the perception is that we make changes because you are playing a way we don't want you to play.  This is only half correct.  The important part of the answer is why we don't want you to play this way.

    In general, we think there is a healthy curve around player innovation and barricade effectiveness in rerouting minions.  The longer you make the enemy's path relative to coin cost and risk, the more impressive the strategy...  

    However, at a certain point, this begins to flip and become mandatory and hidden. The impact the barricade setup has on the difficulty of the level is so substantial that it requires us to either make the level harder, which would only further punish players who are unaware of this mandatory strategy, or adjust barricade permutations, which brings barricade effectiveness back into the realm of encouraging innovation.

    Every change we make is to improve the game for our players.  We are certainly not trying to punish them out of spite, although I know it may feel that way.  We still believe that these changes are for the best, but we hear your criticisms.  We are trying to be more conservative and only tackle the issue when it is a significant offender.

    I hope this helps.
    i understand what u mean, just sad because i liked the way the 1 lane strategy played, just you the killbox and orcs that just keep pouring in, no running around needing to be at 3/4 different place's at the same time. since u can no longer do this, will u reset the score for crogons keep endless? doubt u can get a score close to the 1 lane strat.
  • lielsliels Member
    ShadeDev said:
    apin said:
    xpendersx said:
    hope the "metal grates" on crogon keep wont prevent us from funneling all the orcs in one lane... the endless version would suck balls then.
    I am afraid they fucked up another map :(
    You will not be able to funnel minions into one lane.

    You're probably wondering "why does Robot remove popular strategies?"

    I know that the perception is that we make changes because you are playing a way we don't want you to play.  This is only half correct.  The important part of the answer is why we don't want you to play this way.

    In general, we think there is a healthy curve around player innovation and barricade effectiveness in rerouting minions.  The longer you make the enemy's path relative to coin cost and risk, the more impressive the strategy...  

    However, at a certain point, this begins to flip and become mandatory and hidden. The impact the barricade setup has on the difficulty of the level is so substantial that it requires us to either make the level harder, which would only further punish players who are unaware of this mandatory strategy, or adjust barricade permutations, which brings barricade effectiveness back into the realm of encouraging innovation.

    Every change we make is to improve the game for our players.  We are certainly not trying to punish them out of spite, although I know it may feel that way.  We still believe that these changes are for the best, but we hear your criticisms.  We are trying to be more conservative and only tackle the issue when it is a significant offender.

    I hope this helps.
    Calling e.g. Crogon's (current) rift room barricading an "exploit" is more than a bit pejorative given that it's been available since the beginning of open beta if not before.  Odd that it's 2.3 before it needs to be changed.  It's been a significant offender for this long?  It seems like that path was an intentional part of the design with the route through the kitchen baked in (pun intentional).

    More fundamentally, where do you see the balance between learning clever 'cade strategies and having a real advantage against not being able to get a real advantage?  It seems like it is important to Robot to prevent skilled knowledgeable players from having a real advantage (running ogres and whatnot).  If so, what's the point of learning/trying new things and especially sharing them in your community?

    A lot of the fun for me has been learning things that are not obvious ... a small number I've created/discovered, most have been playing with other people,  which is fun.  Which is to say that yes, skillled knowledgeble players and their communities ought to be able to get a real advantage and that's a good thing.  But apparently not from Robot's perspective.
  • The map is easy at the moment because of this tactic. It's probably the easiest map on rift lord chaos since the minions have to walk a mile from wave one and by wave 3 you have enough money to build the tactic.

    The only negative is when you get expensive barricades. But still then you can have most the minions being tossed off the map. Then a simple trap room which you can save up money for on the right side.
  • lielsliels Member
    The map is easy at the moment because of this tactic. It's probably the easiest map on rift lord chaos since the minions have to walk a mile from wave one and by wave 3 you have enough money to build the tactic.

    The only negative is when you get expensive barricades. But still then you can have most the minions being tossed off the map. Then a simple trap room which you can save up money for on the right side.
    The last L8 CT I played we lost on Crogon even using that strategy ... even though the mods were not all that bad.  Collectively we were just not the greatest players (nor the worst).  If Robot needs to make it impossible for the very best players to have an easy map or two once a clever barricading strategy is discovered, well that's one perspective.  It is just one that I disagree with.   Crogon was "fine" since Open beta ... apparently balancing for the very best players in CT is what is important.  To my original point which an "easy" Crogon supports ... players that are clever or in community should be able to get a real advantage.  The other side of the argument is that it is not necessary to balance e.g. Crogon against players that have found the strategy for the benefit of those that have not.
  • We barely could do this map on lvl8 CT. By barely, I mean using scrolls and winning with 2 rift points left. We wouldn't be able to this without it for sure. The problem with chaos trials is, if you can't get long enough path for minions, you wouldn't be able to kill them in time on higher tiers. Those Ogres/Trolls will just run for your Rift no matter what. You just don't have enough dmg and your heroes die from 1-2 strikes. And if you remove this strategy it means that getting Crogon keep on higher lvls means that you can begin to farm another key.

    (P.S. I hope this comment won't be deleted as the past one.)
  • TimeMasterTimeMaster Member, Early Access
    I understand the frustration of some people here but to be honest, it has always been obvious to me how maps like Crogon Keep, Falling Folly, Training Grounds, The Wall, Highlands, Confluence were meant to force players to use tactics with multiple killboxes.

    The whole rerouting thing doesn't feel right to me, it feels even worse and weirder with the rift rush making Ogres sprint around the whole map and all the rest of minions totally ignore heroes and guardians. It's taking away as many mechanics or more than it gives.

    There are other maps with the possibility of rerouting like Temple Graveyard, Banquet Hall, Eventide Fortress, Restricted Section. Maximum Security, etc. 

    I'm not gonna lie, I prefer maps that let you make as many strategies as possible and that allow you to explore different routing and barricading, but It feels wrong when you can just place many barricades and pretty much forget about them the whole match while just waiting on your killbox for minions to come.

    I'd like to see Training Grounds fixed too. (maybe even Baths and The Wall with their pathings around the rift?...)
  • lielsliels Member
    I understand the frustration of some people here but to be honest, it has always been obvious to me how maps like Crogon Keep, Falling Folly, Training Grounds, The Wall, Highlands, Confluence were meant to force players to use tactics with multiple killboxes.

    The whole rerouting thing doesn't feel right to me, it feels even worse and weirder with the rift rush making Ogres sprint around the whole map and all the rest of minions totally ignore heroes and guardians. It's taking away as many mechanics or more than it gives.

    There are other maps with the possibility of rerouting like Temple Graveyard, Banquet Hall, Eventide Fortress, Restricted Section. Maximum Security, etc. 

    I'm not gonna lie, I prefer maps that let you make as many strategies as possible and that allow you to explore different routing and barricading, but It feels wrong when you can just place many barricades and pretty much forget about them the whole match while just waiting on your killbox for minions to come.

    I'd like to see Training Grounds fixed too. (maybe even Baths and The Wall with their pathings around the rift?...)
    Why allow different paths at all?  Each gate (or sets of gates) has a path it *must* go through.  Find the killboxen. Done. Boring.  Dead boring. 

    Are there many ways to do things?  Are there non-obvious things that will give a real advantage?  Are real advantages allowed? Are players that by work, cleverness or community that find them allowed to "keep" them?  It seems not.

    The fact that this "needed" change happens in 2.3 after Crogon has been (more or less) stable since open beta started suggests that the devs are reactive to 2.2 Chaos trials and the 133t players thereof.  Yuck.
  • TimeMasterTimeMaster Member, Early Access
    liels said:
    I understand the frustration of some people here but to be honest, it has always been obvious to me how maps like Crogon Keep, Falling Folly, Training Grounds, The Wall, Highlands, Confluence were meant to force players to use tactics with multiple killboxes.

    The whole rerouting thing doesn't feel right to me, it feels even worse and weirder with the rift rush making Ogres sprint around the whole map and all the rest of minions totally ignore heroes and guardians. It's taking away as many mechanics or more than it gives.

    There are other maps with the possibility of rerouting like Temple Graveyard, Banquet Hall, Eventide Fortress, Restricted Section. Maximum Security, etc. 

    I'm not gonna lie, I prefer maps that let you make as many strategies as possible and that allow you to explore different routing and barricading, but It feels wrong when you can just place many barricades and pretty much forget about them the whole match while just waiting on your killbox for minions to come.

    I'd like to see Training Grounds fixed too. (maybe even Baths and The Wall with their pathings around the rift?...)
    Why allow different paths at all?  Each gate (or sets of gates) has a path it *must* go through.  Find the killboxen. Done. Boring.  Dead boring. 

    Are there many ways to do things?  Are there non-obvious things that will give a real advantage?  Are real advantages allowed? Are players that by work, cleverness or community that find them allowed to "keep" them?  It seems not.

    The fact that this "needed" change happens in 2.3 after Crogon has been (more or less) stable since open beta started suggests that the devs are reactive to 2.2 Chaos trials and the 133t players thereof.  Yuck.
    I don't know what you are talking about, there are many places to have a killbox on Crogon Keep. If the map is designed to have 2 independent sides, what's the problem with that being fixed? There are other maps like that, like Academy Sewers.

    Pretty much everyone I played with lately uses the very same pathing in Crogon keep, as you say, boring. Even more boring when you have to wait the minions 2 or 3 minutes to go across the whole map, just like in Eventide. 

    If Big Maps with many Gates and many different paths to be explored are that desired and popular, ask or suggest Robot to make more of these. 

    Maps that require multiple killboxes look more interesting and hectic/chaotic, fun to me, although I have to say that I would love some maps that resemble the original game maps, with the feeling of being in a castle and having way more ceiling and trapable space in general plus having an already set (narrower) path and just focus on place traps and kill everything.
  • bennytorbennytor Member
    to have time on crogon in RL you make 3 killbox ! on the left you have the round trip bug, so operate with this one and you gain a lot of time to make the 2 rigth doors ! 
  • xpendersxxpendersx Member
    edited July 24
    I understand the frustration of some people here but to be honest, it has always been obvious to me how maps like Crogon Keep, Falling Folly, Training Grounds, The Wall, Highlands, Confluence were meant to force players to use tactics with multiple killboxes.

    The whole rerouting thing doesn't feel right to me, it feels even worse and weirder with the rift rush making Ogres sprint around the whole map and all the rest of minions totally ignore heroes and guardians. It's taking away as many mechanics or more than it gives.

    There are other maps with the possibility of rerouting like Temple Graveyard, Banquet Hall, Eventide Fortress, Restricted Section. Maximum Security, etc. 

    I'm not gonna lie, I prefer maps that let you make as many strategies as possible and that allow you to explore different routing and barricading, but It feels wrong when you can just place many barricades and pretty much forget about them the whole match while just waiting on your killbox for minions to come.

    I'd like to see Training Grounds fixed too. (maybe even Baths and The Wall with their pathings around the rift?...)
    It's not like you are forced to use that strat, and what about endless without certain barricade strats u wont hold out for as long. and for high level CT's its almost mandatory to have minions walk for that long. i understand what u mean i just dont agree that it needs to be changed, i like that u have so many different ways you can play. There is always 1 strat better than the other. 

    R.I.P Endless..
  • TimeMasterTimeMaster Member, Early Access
    I wouldn't mind that much if the Rift Rush were fixed, but it seems like that is not gonna happen...

    I understand that many people is afraid of changes and others truly liked that pathing.

    Let's be real about what that pathing is doing though. It's making every minion from the 2 gates, ignore Guardians and players and Making Ogres faster than Kobolds. Just like Baths barricading around the rift. Also it takes several minutes per wave.

    Both strategies aren't obvious, since the barricading is pretty specific. Both strategies were by far the best for those maps. How's that fun? It's obvious that having all the minions slaughtered by Guardians that deal damage on % of total HP while minions just run past them without fighting. 

    How is that NOT exploiting?

    I'm always in favor of having more possibilities. This change is gonna make the map have different possible ways of killboxing, sure there might be one better, we will have to figure it out though, it will definetely not be blatantly obvious. But I really think that with different loadouts and setups there will be different best solutions. Not just a solution that rules them all and any other strat is not even close as effective.
  • i'm just going to hate crogon keep as a endless map now..
  • @ShadeDev

    Are we getting this patch tomorrow? 
    Have you sorted out that stuff with discord?


    Also about this Crogon Keep madness. The layout of the barricades has changed over the updates, and they have fixed bugs related to the diversion. If they are going to fix it they will have to reset the leader boards.
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  • DonnerstagDonnerstag Member
    edited July 24
    I wouldn't mind that much if the Rift Rush were fixed, but it seems like that is not gonna happen...

    I understand that many people is afraid of changes and others truly liked that pathing.

    Let's be real about what that pathing is doing though. It's making every minion from the 2 gates, ignore Guardians and players and Making Ogres faster than Kobolds. Just like Baths barricading around the rift. Also it takes several minutes per wave.

    Both strategies aren't obvious, since the barricading is pretty specific. Both strategies were by far the best for those maps. How's that fun? It's obvious that having all the minions slaughtered by Guardians that deal damage on % of total HP while minions just run past them without fighting. 

    How is that NOT exploiting?

    I'm always in favor of having more possibilities. This change is gonna make the map have different possible ways of killboxing, sure there might be one better, we will have to figure it out though, it will definetely not be blatantly obvious. But I really think that with different loadouts and setups there will be different best solutions. Not just a solution that rules them all and any other strat is not even close as effective.
    To be fair, it's only an "exploit" because of the Rift Bug. If the bug was fixed, it wouldn't be such a problem; minions wouldn't ignore guardians and players, and ogres wouldn't run madly for miles. I understand the need to patch out those strats that look a bit overpowered - even though I genuinely liked them - but fixing the bug seems to me like a more obvious solution. Like xpendersw said, there will always be a strategy that is objectively better than the others, that just how it is. Without this strat, the most effective one becomes the loop minions do on the left side of the rift when you block the path just before the rift room. Will it be patched out too? Like I said, I understand the devs' decision to remove this strat, but let's not pretend like it makes the map objectively more fun to play.


    Truth be told, I stopped doing this strat long ago in favor of building multiple killboxes because I had grown tired of this extremely long pathing. But the strat was still available to me and I was happy to be able to use it in Chaos Trials and Endless. The map didn't seem overly easy, even with the long and "safe" strat. Kobold and Fire Ogres were a major threat that could make you lose the map in one wave simply because you stopped paying attention for a moment.


    I'll admit that Crogon Keep was far from the hardest to 5-star in Endless, but still, even with the one-killbox strat, it wasn't a walk in the park either. I honestly don't know how you could reach wave 25 now that you basically have to build 3 killboxes, especially when the bottom-right lane is so short and spawns ogres by the dozen every wave...


    EDIT: Also, I forgot to mention that, due to par time, players already had to choose a different strat if they wanted to 5-stars the map in any difficulty. The safe strat was just far too long.
  • What it really makes me feel is that they gave us good reward when introducing chaos trial but now they want to make it harder and harder to get it. If there are easy strategies like that in  crogon keep players will be able to get tons of skulls, which will drecrease the chances of spending money on skulls.
    less reward = more money
    I don't bite this whole balance excuse too "fix" the map, thats how I really feel with this kind of change.

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