Pathing changes intended? Minions don't need LOS to know path blocked.

SpamwagonSpamwagon Member, Master Founder, Early Access
I will just quote Donnerstag because he put it so succinctly:

Another potential pathing change, on Stables of Eventide: before, if you put barricades at the exit of the church area, minions from the northern gate would go inside the church, see the barricades, then turn around and take the other, longer path. They don't do that anymore, when you block the church they'll take the path through the stables right away. I'm not 100% sure it was changed this patch but I never noticed such a thing before. 
It's a bit of a shame, it was a good strategy that felt logicial: I like the fact that minions often have to see for themselves that a path is blocked before choosing another one, it makes waves pathing feel less computer-driven and allows for great strats a lesser game wouldn't allow.

I noticed this myself.  It doesn't appear that minions require line-of-sight anymore to determine if a route is blocked on some maps.   I hope this is an error, because it was one of the things I liked a lot about this game.
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  • Here is a quote from the recent patch notes:

    • Master Stables of Eventide wave 2 difficulty reduced.  Final wave made more challenging.
    • Master Falling Folly difficulty reduced across most waves.
    • Master Orc-rila difficulty increased SLIGHTLY on most waves.
    • Control immunity now blocks all knockbacks.  Control resistance continues to NOT modify knockbacks.
    • Stables of Eventide pathing updated.
    • Confluence and Crogon Keep have had metal grates added to the Rift Room to prevent exploits with barricades.
    So yes it is intended.
    Keep it secret, Keep it safe.
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  • SpamwagonSpamwagon Member, Master Founder, Early Access
    Thank you for that EffingWorms.

    However, as you are not an actual employee of the company, I would prefer to hear it from "the horse's mouth" if you will.

    If it was intended, I would like to understand why.  At present, it doesn't fit with the rest of the game and the "rules" as we understand them.  Meaning - minions do not know that a path is unavailable until they have LOS - that is what we believe and understand as how they work.

    Why is this changing?  What rules are now suspect?  Will the developers just change things that are "rules" on a whim now?

    It is a bigger issue, than just showing me a list of patchnotes sir.
  • It's intended, but is it better this way? :)
    It's not like it was game-breaking or made this particular level so much easier. In fact, like I said, I think this complex pathing system adds a lot to the game.

    I'll need to test it, but I think Maximum Security have been changed the same way. Before, when you blocked the "usual" spot just north of the rift, minions for the eastern gate would start by going all the way to the barricades, then turn around. Now I'm pretty sure they go for the big circular path right away.
  • SpamwagonSpamwagon Member, Master Founder, Early Access
    The problem is.. it is breaking their rules.

    Minions take the shortest path available, upon seeing (read - LOS) that path is blocked, they will then go to the next shortest path and repeat the behavior.

    Why is that changing?   That is a CORE BEHAVIOR of the game.  Do NOT change it without serious consideration and explanation thereof.
  • Spamwagon said:
    The problem is.. it is breaking their rules.

    Minions take the shortest path available, upon seeing (read - LOS) that path is blocked, they will then go to the next shortest path and repeat the behavior.

    Why is that changing?   That is a CORE BEHAVIOR of the game.  Do NOT change it without serious consideration and explanation thereof.
    It also makes it harder to predict minion's pathing. It's already hard enough to know right away which path the minions will take, we don't need special exceptions for some parts of some maps...
  • TimeMasterTimeMaster Member, Early Access
    Spamwagon said:
    The problem is.. it is breaking their rules.

    Minions take the shortest path available, upon seeing (read - LOS) that path is blocked, they will then go to the next shortest path and repeat the behavior.

    Why is that changing?   That is a CORE BEHAVIOR of the game.  Do NOT change it without serious consideration and explanation thereof.
    It also makes it harder to predict minion's pathing. It's already hard enough to know right away which path the minions will take, we don't need special exceptions for some parts of some maps...
    Why is it hard? On every break you can see the paths with the ghosts/whisps
  • I just played this map on a Chaos Key and noticed this.

    One of the few places on that map for a convenient Coinforge is between the Stablehand guardian slot and the entry to the Church/Temple.  The new pathing rather breaks that, not a single orc trod upon my Coinforge there lol.
  • AxonyAxony Member
    edited July 31
    also after the patch more minions are flying through walls and get stuck at unreachable places.
    So they fixed this bug on Throne Room but added it on all other maps
  • FwuffyFwuffy Member
    Yes there are a few pathing changes that I've noticed. There were some pretty old paths that didn't require LOS to figure out, and some newer changes:

    [1] Maximum Security - Right entrance mobs no longer walk to the rift, they head straight down.
    [2] Frostbite - Minions no longer walk as far from the first entrance before turning back to go through the Blacksmith; you can't get them to walk across the open area zone twice as before. (And on this map, you also couldn't route this entrance through a very long way through the Cook and back, because they would instantly know that the Cook exit was also blocked)
    [3] An old one - when blocking the rift side of the Cook on Throne Room, the mobs would never actually walk far in enough into the Cook area to "see" the barricade before turning back.
    [4] The aforementioned change to Stables.

    I can understand the devs not wanting to allow certain loopey routes that are too advantageous, but I do think the clever (and totally logical) LoS rules were an appeal of the game. It's a shame that they couldn't find a way to keep the LoS requirement, but find other ways around eliminating what they felt was a problem - rather than just creating random exceptions to the LoS situation.
  • TimeMasterTimeMaster Member, Early Access
    Fwuffy said:
    Yes there are a few pathing changes that I've noticed. There were some pretty old paths that didn't require LOS to figure out, and some newer changes:

    [1] Maximum Security - Right entrance mobs no longer walk to the rift, they head straight down.
    [2] Frostbite - Minions no longer walk as far from the first entrance before turning back to go through the Blacksmith; you can't get them to walk across the open area zone twice as before. (And on this map, you also couldn't route this entrance through a very long way through the Cook and back, because they would instantly know that the Cook exit was also blocked)
    [3] An old one - when blocking the rift side of the Cook on Throne Room, the mobs would never actually walk far in enough into the Cook area to "see" the barricade before turning back.
    [4] The aforementioned change to Stables.

    I can understand the devs not wanting to allow certain loopey routes that are too advantageous, but I do think the clever (and totally logical) LoS rules were an appeal of the game. It's a shame that they couldn't find a way to keep the LoS requirement, but find other ways around eliminating what they felt was a problem - rather than just creating random exceptions to the LoS situation.
    To be honest, even after having played so much this game I still can't really figure out a pattern about the behaviour that can be applied to every map.

    That's mainly because it seems to not really be a Line of Sight mechanic, but rather a checkpoints system. Some Maps have portals evenly split the wave making each half go a different path. Minions try to reach checkpoints, if there is no checkpoint between the spawn and the barricades on the closed corridor, they won't go there.

    That makes every map be a different story.
  • ShadeDevShadeDev Member, Robot Entertainment, Early Access, Apprentice Founder, Featured Developer
    Fwuffy said:
    Yes there are a few pathing changes that I've noticed. There were some pretty old paths that didn't require LOS to figure out, and some newer changes:

    [1] Maximum Security - Right entrance mobs no longer walk to the rift, they head straight down.
    [2] Frostbite - Minions no longer walk as far from the first entrance before turning back to go through the Blacksmith; you can't get them to walk across the open area zone twice as before. (And on this map, you also couldn't route this entrance through a very long way through the Cook and back, because they would instantly know that the Cook exit was also blocked)
    [3] An old one - when blocking the rift side of the Cook on Throne Room, the mobs would never actually walk far in enough into the Cook area to "see" the barricade before turning back.
    [4] The aforementioned change to Stables.

    I can understand the devs not wanting to allow certain loopey routes that are too advantageous, but I do think the clever (and totally logical) LoS rules were an appeal of the game. It's a shame that they couldn't find a way to keep the LoS requirement, but find other ways around eliminating what they felt was a problem - rather than just creating random exceptions to the LoS situation.
    Pathing has never been based on line of sight (although it may seem that way).  It has been based on checkpoints that are invisible.  We simply removed one of the checkpoints.
    Doug Houserman
    Robot Entertainment | Lead Balance Designer
  • rayleiraylei Member
    edited July 31
    The line of sight collision with convex set, sounds like a research problem to me. Ever heard of  Art_gallery_problem?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_gallery_problem

    My observation: In some map, orcs have to make going left or right decision. If they take the one with the path, which eventually "blocked" by our cades, (orcs don't know it is blocked. Orcs cannot see the future! Think about it!), they usually travel to the farthest waypoint that is not blocked in the path, then turn around. The path might differ slightly depending on the portal which those sad orcs spawned from. Sometimes, I notice the orcs(label them with A) from the different portal choose not to go further into the blocked path before they reach the farthest waypoint(the waypoint which is the farthest for the orcs(label them with B ) from the other portal, but it is not the farthest for the orcs(label with A)) in the blocked path. It seems to be that there are bound on the distance for each portal, but it could be just me get confused by the waypoint for minions from different portals. 

    Black and red are original. Light purple and yellow=after blocked. I might be wrong though.



    So this is how we add small words under our post/comments.
  • TimeMasterTimeMaster Member, Early Access
    raylei said:
    The line of sight collision with convex set, sounds like a research problem to me. Ever heard of  Art_gallery_problem?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_gallery_problem

    My observation: In some map, orcs have to make going left or right decision. If they take the one with the path, which eventually "blocked" by our cades, (orcs don't know it is blocked. Orcs cannot see the future! Think about it!), they usually travel to the farthest waypoint that is not blocked in the path, then turn around. The path might differ slightly depending on the portal which those sad orcs spawned from. Sometimes, I notice the orcs(label them with A) from the different portal choose not to go further into the blocked path before they reach the farthest waypoint(the waypoint which is the farthest for the orcs(label them with B ) from the other portal, but it is not the farthest for the orcs(label with A)) in the blocked path. It seems to be that there are bound on the distance for each portal, but it could be just me get confused by the waypoint for minions from different portals. 

    Black and red are original. Light purple and yellow=after blocked. I might be wrong though.



    If that were the case, why minions on Crogon keep can be tricked into doing the whole map twice or pretty much the same on Eventide Fortress or The Wall?
  • SpamwagonSpamwagon Member, Master Founder, Early Access
    ShadeDev said:
    Pathing has never been based on line of sight (although it may seem that way).  It has been based on checkpoints that are invisible.  We simply removed one of the checkpoints.
    Ok.  Then howsabout you guys make a core ruleset and quit goofing about then?
  • xciencexcience Member, Early Access
    edited July 31
    The real problem with this is that traps like the steam trap get hit hard. A lot of the repeat appeal of this trap is to get a second layer of damage on the enemy by stacking wall traps. Some of the pathing limitations have essentially eliminated prime map realestat for this. The frostbite repathing is a great example for this. The units now turn around way prematurely and a cool killbox is lost
  • rayleiraylei Member
    edited July 31
    raylei said:
    The line of sight collision with convex set, sounds like a research problem to me. Ever heard of  Art_gallery_problem?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_gallery_problem

    My observation: In some map, orcs have to make going left or right decision. If they take the one with the path, which eventually "blocked" by our cades, (orcs don't know it is blocked. Orcs cannot see the future! Think about it!), they usually travel to the farthest waypoint that is not blocked in the path, then turn around. The path might differ slightly depending on the portal which those sad orcs spawned from. Sometimes, I notice the orcs(label them with A) from the different portal choose not to go further into the blocked path before they reach the farthest waypoint(the waypoint which is the farthest for the orcs(label them with B ) from the other portal, but it is not the farthest for the orcs(label with A)) in the blocked path. It seems to be that there are bound on the distance for each portal, but it could be just me get confused by the waypoint for minions from different portals. 

    Black and red are original. Light purple and yellow=after blocked. I might be wrong though.



    If that were the case, why minions on Crogon keep can be tricked into doing the whole map twice or pretty much the same on Eventide Fortress or The Wall?
    Because of the waypoints. I am not sure what you mean by doing the whole map twice. Did you mean some path overlap itself sometimes?

    For examples: 

    the portal for the Eventide fortresses from the right side:

    Green is original. Red is after blocked.
    the orcs from the portal won't know the shortest path from the waypoint 3 to the way point 4 is blocked until they reach 3(poor orcs), so they have to turn around and go through blacksmith twice and the small portion of the right part 3 times before they reach the way point 4!



    The right portal for the Wall:

    Similar idea. Blue is original. Red is after blocked. You can make red path even longer by blocking the bottom part and force them to go to the blacksmith first on the left side.



    The top left portal for Crogon keep:
    Green is original. Red is after blocked.

    I guess this is what Shade dev. meant for the Stable of Eventide? Something like this:





    So this is how we add small words under our post/comments.
  • TimeMasterTimeMaster Member, Early Access
    The waypoints are in the middle of the path, you can effectively create a maze around it if you know where exactly it is, so you can do something like this:


  • rayleiraylei Member
    edited July 31
    The waypoints are in the middle of the path, you can effectively create a maze around it if you know where exactly it is, so you can do something like this:


    The minion's path is wrong for the top left portal xd. They walk longer than that. The path has more overlaps.
    That is the idea. It applies to every map.
    So this is how we add small words under our post/comments.
  • TimeMasterTimeMaster Member, Early Access
    You are right, it's like this:


  • FwuffyFwuffy Member
    ShadeDev said:
    Pathing has never been based on line of sight (although it may seem that way).  It has been based on checkpoints that are invisible.  We simply removed one of the checkpoints.
    Well in which case; it would be nice if pathing was/appeared LoS based as that would be logical, regardless of the backend programming magic necessary to accomplish it.
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