Sabotage - Comeback mechanics!

After playing hundreds of sabotage games, there is a recurring problem I've been noticing - comeback mechanics. Currently, there seems to be close to no mechanics that aid in making comebacks if one team is losing. In the current meta of the game (higher tier games, that is), if you lose rift points before sudden death, it's over. The chance of come back is slim to none. Here are some suggestions:

1. Increase chance of stronger minions/consumable cards in later waves 
2. Re-rolling minion cards/consumable cards grants higher chance of getting stronger cards (It does cost 500 coin)
3. Allow a cap of minion/consumable cards people can get. Right now, I have close to 100 mana drain cards, coin drain, etc. All these cards are filling up my total card pool to draw from, decrease my chances of obtaining stronger cards.

If all three of these suggestions are implemented, I believe the QUALITY of sabotage games would drastically increase. There are countless games that I've played where the other team would just go AFK if they lose any rift points because the game is essentially over. There are no comeback mechanics due to the RNG of drawing minion/consumables cards, accompanied by a huge card pool.


Comments

  • ShadeDevShadeDev Member, Robot Entertainment, Early Access, Apprentice Founder, Featured Developer
    edited September 5
    As it stands, stronger consumables are more likely to appear in later waves.

    In addition, if you are losing, your chance to get get stronger consumables is increased.

    Lastly, if you own a bajillion of the same card, your chance to get that card does not increase.  It does not decrease your chance for you to get stronger cards.
    Doug Houserman
    Robot Entertainment | Lead Balance Designer
  • @ shadedev. Thanks for your response. If the system is already in place, maybe tweak the percentage so it's even more likely. I can't speak for everyone, but my guildmates and I have played hundreds of sabotage games and we don't really see a big difference, if any.

    Another option would be instead of rerolling for minion/consumable cards, change the rerolling option to purchasing the cards we wan't from each person's respective deck. Furthermore, mark a specific price for each consumable/minion cards (i.e. common cost $300, uncommon $400, rare - $500, epic - $750, legendary - $1000). Lastly, put in a mechanic in place where players can't reroll and select the same minion/consumable card they previously chose last wave. This will prevent choosing area AOE or bomb every wave. 

    You guys can decide on the price markup, but I truly believe these changes will have a positive effect on Sabotage. This will help make the games much more exciting and allow for much more dynamic gameplay. This will help shift the current META in a more position direction.
  • TimeMasterTimeMaster Member, Early Access
    The problem is obvious for high tier as you say, your ideas could help, however I see 2 big problems with it. They would need some major tweaking because of:

    1. Consumable Drop Quantity and Distribution of it. Winning gives you more consumable drops. Even if everyone got the same amount, your idea would make everyone's good cards (as in rare/epic) to be on minimal numbers. Right now, winning mostly, some of the best cards remain on close to 0 quantity for me. Let alone having more and more chances of getting those over the matches.

      To make this work, the drop distribution should be changed quite a lot. Even if for some reason like some players do, you wouldn't send cards for half of the waves, you would still have that problem. And it would be even more pronounced if our winrate were 50% as it should be in the ideal matchup.

    2. Making things stronger later waves can make the games be exclusively decided on later waves. It would be quite hard in my opinion to balance it so it doesn't feel like the last waves are the only chance to score or similar situations.

      Which personally I wouldn't mind, but I bet many people wouldn't like to have increasing difficulty in a steep enough curve for you and me to not be able to go consistently on Sudden Death.

      We got already people not using cards for some reason or another, trying to stack good cards or things alike.


    Although the problem alltogether in high tier is to score at all. Not really comebacks, but just the fact of scoring before sudden death, feels very unlikely for me to get scored unless I mess up pretty hard.

    Winning strat ends up being about barricading and pathing after that, SD has few to do about killing minions on half of the maps or more.
    Your suggestions would also make power gens a must, which I'm not sure if it's a desired effect.

    There aren't many ways of making it interesting for high tier to be honest. It would need some serious restrictions like no-barricades or a maximum amount of them like 10. That would erradicate the problems of pathings being OP, games going too long and boring and remove many cheesing tactics with pathings or physics...
  • PizzaholicPizzaholic Member
    edited September 5
    I can vouch for the dev's words because I've been in games where I spend the rest of the waves defending against bosses in every waves (sometimes two in a single wave) and then losing the game because my team lead the enemy by 1 fucking point and then the enemy summoned swifty and drain unchained and polymorphed me.

    It is really hard to take the competitiveness of sabotage seriously because everything in it is a joke of RNG. Take spawn doors for example, most of the times it is the sole deciding factor of scoring in maps like falling folly and gates of thuricvod.

    There are also some problem with spells:
    - Bomb/aoe damage spell is almost useless in medium level of play (people don't know to time it and they can easily avoid it), retarded in low level of play (people have no clue about it and will let it set off on barricades), somewhat useful in high level of play (with coordination of dance/morph/mesmerize).
    - Polymorph have such a long effect time that the only way to counter it is to suicide and buyback
    - It is almost impossible for ranged character to destroy banners placed inside minion swarm

    And then the level scaling problem: low levels would be a heavy burden on the team when teamed with high leveled players (nonexistent damage and hp) and new players that are clueless about this would pick blackpaw/melee then proceed to haste feed the minions.

    Finally, the minion teleportation bug where knocked minions (push/flip/wall spike/hay/ivy) would exit the map randomly and then suddenly scored the rift or destroyed barricades.



  • TimeMasterTimeMaster Member, Early Access
    @Pizzaholic Unless it has changed in recent patches, the comeback mechanic for Sabotage of having a greater chance of rolling better cards isn't triggered with just 1 rift point difference, it needs to be a quite bigger gap to work.
  • I have almost hundred bosses (include 20 Swifty Hooves) but no chance to pick them. That seems stupid.
  • ShadeDevShadeDev Member, Robot Entertainment, Early Access, Apprentice Founder, Featured Developer
    @ shadedev. Thanks for your response. If the system is already in place, maybe tweak the percentage so it's even more likely. I can't speak for everyone, but my guildmates and I have played hundreds of sabotage games and we don't really see a big difference, if any.

    Another option would be instead of rerolling for minion/consumable cards, change the rerolling option to purchasing the cards we wan't from each person's respective deck. Furthermore, mark a specific price for each consumable/minion cards (i.e. common cost $300, uncommon $400, rare - $500, epic - $750, legendary - $1000). Lastly, put in a mechanic in place where players can't reroll and select the same minion/consumable card they previously chose last wave. This will prevent choosing area AOE or bomb every wave. 

    You guys can decide on the price markup, but I truly believe these changes will have a positive effect on Sabotage. This will help make the games much more exciting and allow for much more dynamic gameplay. This will help shift the current META in a more position direction.
    The data actually shows that quite a few comebacks are occurring when matches are fair.  The difficulty is:
    - Many maps are simply not hard enough to score before sudden death for high end players.
    - Comebacks in wide skill separations rarely occur.

    However, we also know that we are making the fairest matches possible.  The only alternative is to forcefully lower the skill ceiling of the mode further so that games feel closer on average.
    Doug Houserman
    Robot Entertainment | Lead Balance Designer
  • Stop complaining. You lose the games and you blame the system. Seriously dude? 
  • I agree about good consumables not spawning often enough when behind.  I understand that there's an increased chance but I feel like it could be higher.  Admittedly it doesn't happen very often so I have a small sample size, but when I make a dumb mistake and get scored on early I always reroll both my minion/spell cards every wave after that.  Every wave seems to offer me the choice of 3 commons/uncommons for 5 waves straight despite me rerolling every wave.

    And I unfortunately do see the "I leaked early so now I'll AFK" from high level players a lot.  Sometimes I empathize with them when I see them get to wave 8 then just sell all their barricades and AFK because they know the Frost Ogres + minion speed boost staff best possible combination they were offered won't be enough to score against me.  They just drop the staff on top of me and let it end.

    Also I know people complain about luck when they go "REEEE SABOTAGE IS BS THEY HAD SWIFTY + DANCE  WAVE 1" but I've easily played over a hundred games and never once seen anything like that happen.  Very rarely I'll see a Bulgod wave 1, but I don't feel like wave 1 Bulgod is "bs".  The other player/s might get rarer consumables, but the great thing about Sabotage is everything can be countered (except firelings in some situations, thanks devs).  If you have to deal with dance/poly/etc every wave and you only ever get mana drain it still doesn't mean the enemy is guaranteed to score as long as you or your team respond appropriately.

    One big change I'd like to see is spawned minions not being worth exp/gold to the enemy.  At higher levels a lot of the time people don't spawn anything because the chance of scoring is too low to warrant giving the enemy gold/exp from the minions and it makes it boring killing the maps normal minions.  If summoned minions weren't worth money/exp there would be less reason to hold them.

    I might be in the minority when I say I actually enjoy Sudden Death on most maps.  Most of the time it really feels like sudden death and is intense.  I enjoy the pros and cons of debating how long you should hold your consumables.  Doing it too early could not have enough of an impact, doing it too late and you've already lost.  The tension of wondering what the enemy has in store for you and when they will unleash it.  I feel like Sudden Death is done very well.  There are a couple things I would change. Ivy being able to permanently hold certain lanes on maps is annoying.  Having a lane that only spawns small minions in sudden death feels like bad design.  Also being able to route both lanes into one on Training Grounds turns Sudden Death into a snooze fest on that map and it's a chore to set up all the barricades.

    tl;dr
    Suggestiions:
    -Increase chance of rare consumables spawning when behind
    -Nerf firelings so they arent' sappers that can spawn on top of your barricades or make fire elementals epic rarity in Sabotage
    -Make summoned minions not worth gold/exp to the enemy
    -Make Sudden Death spawn heavy minions in all lanes so Ivy can't permanently stall
    -Remove ability to turn Training Grounds into one lane so Sudden Death doesn't take forever
    -Official funeral for Stunning Accumulator
  • i agree to most of your statements but bosses wave 1 can happen (i had it many times and he scored in 8/10 situations).

    Sudden Death is a nice idea but some maps (throne room, banquett hall, Ocri-La) are always endless... it's not sudden if you can hold it for 10 more minutes.

    Training grounds sudden death works now? normally the map crashes 30sec after sudden death starts.

    Ivy is a big problem in Sabotage with her awesome stalling and safe positioning but if you nerf her due to this factor most people will be annoyed because this nerf hits harder in Survival (no stalling needed)

    I would love to see more (harder) Sabotage maps where you can't build 1 killbox and get every lane into it.
    I'm still waiting for Sabotage Eventide Fortress even if this is a 1 killbox map.
    Good maps for Sabotage could be: Unchained Fortress, Cliffside Clash (for the Siege feeling) or Crogon Keep and Shark Island (for harder challenges)

    To counter the endless Sabotage it would be nice to make Sudden Death like Gates of Thuricvod: Tons of Urzas and Fire Elementals.


    In my personal opinion I would put a timer in Sudden Death and if 5 Minutes pass and no1 lost it's a draw.


  • I suggest a new 1vs1 Sabotage Mode for high level players, where we can choose 5 or 10 fixed cards to bring to the match, then we can use strong cards every waves. The system could show both players's cards at the start of the game, so we will know what the opponent bring.
  • Maybe I'm just lucky and haven't seen a boss score wave 1, only seen Bulgod and he's usually a nonfactor since there's only 1 gate open and everyone is standing around it.

    I'm fine with some maps "always" going into Sudden Death because I feel like it will be unavoidable for that to be the case for high tier players who have "solved" a map.  The problem is, like you said, that "Sudden" Death isn't very Sudden on a lot of maps so you end up playing a map that you know will go to SD and you know that SD will take a long time.  Which is why I would definitely advocate for making SD waves a lot stronger on maps like Banquet Hall and Throne Room, but I'm not sure just adding constant spawns of barricade destroying enemies would be the solution.  Gates SD is great because the Urza spam starts so far away from your rift and the firelings only effect that lane, but if Orcri-La SD was constant Urza spam I think it would defeat the purpose of setting up that map.  I actually enjoy the new Orcri-La SD a lot.  The "falling back" mechanic of having to retreat to each killbox as you get overwhelmed while dodging dangerous minions like Pride Hunters and Giants.  I'd prefer SD time to be shortened by the addition of more troublesome minions like Armored Grizzlies, Giants, and Order Mages than I would seeing barricade destroying enemies constantly spawn on Orcri-La.

    I agree not to nerf Ivy, I didn't want that.  I'm saying make sure that heavy minions spawn on every lane during SD.  Survival would be unaffected and it would get rid of the "either pick Ivy or lose SD" mechanic on some maps.

    Although Eventide Fortress is one of my favorite maps, I don't know if it would be a good addition for Sabotage.  People already complain that maps are "guaranteed" to go into SD, a map has big as Eventide Fortress could great even longer matches.

    Agreed that maps like Unchained Fortress/Cliffside/Shark Island are good layouts for Sabotage.  I think Crogon Keep might fall into the "makes matches a lot longer" problem Eventide Fortress has.  I don't think SD should end in a draw, if you played a match that long and got into SD I'd be pretty disappointed that it was a draw so that I felt like I played for nothing.  I feel like making the SD waves harder is enough.
  • @ shadedev. Please don't lower the skill ceiling any more than it already is. There is enough randomness built into this PVP mode as it is.
  • I agree about good consumables not spawning often enough when behind.  I understand that there's an increased chance but I feel like it could be higher.  Admittedly it doesn't happen very often so I have a small sample size, but when I make a dumb mistake and get scored on early I always reroll both my minion/spell cards every wave after that.  Every wave seems to offer me the choice of 3 commons/uncommons for 5 waves straight despite me rerolling every wave.

    And I unfortunately do see the "I leaked early so now I'll AFK" from high level players a lot.  Sometimes I empathize with them when I see them get to wave 8 then just sell all their barricades and AFK because they know the Frost Ogres + minion speed boost staff best possible combination they were offered won't be enough to score against me.  They just drop the staff on top of me and let it end.

    Also I know people complain about luck when they go "REEEE SABOTAGE IS BS THEY HAD SWIFTY + DANCE  WAVE 1" but I've easily played over a hundred games and never once seen anything like that happen.  Very rarely I'll see a Bulgod wave 1, but I don't feel like wave 1 Bulgod is "bs".  The other player/s might get rarer consumables, but the great thing about Sabotage is everything can be countered (except firelings in some situations, thanks devs).  If you have to deal with dance/poly/etc every wave and you only ever get mana drain it still doesn't mean the enemy is guaranteed to score as long as you or your team respond appropriately.

    One big change I'd like to see is spawned minions not being worth exp/gold to the enemy.  At higher levels a lot of the time people don't spawn anything because the chance of scoring is too low to warrant giving the enemy gold/exp from the minions and it makes it boring killing the maps normal minions.  If summoned minions weren't worth money/exp there would be less reason to hold them.

    I might be in the minority when I say I actually enjoy Sudden Death on most maps.  Most of the time it really feels like sudden death and is intense.  I enjoy the pros and cons of debating how long you should hold your consumables.  Doing it too early could not have enough of an impact, doing it too late and you've already lost.  The tension of wondering what the enemy has in store for you and when they will unleash it.  I feel like Sudden Death is done very well.  There are a couple things I would change. Ivy being able to permanently hold certain lanes on maps is annoying.  Having a lane that only spawns small minions in sudden death feels like bad design.  Also being able to route both lanes into one on Training Grounds turns Sudden Death into a snooze fest on that map and it's a chore to set up all the barricades.

    tl;dr
    Suggestiions:
    -Increase chance of rare consumables spawning when behind
    -Nerf firelings so they arent' sappers that can spawn on top of your barricades or make fire elementals epic rarity in Sabotage
    -Make summoned minions not worth gold/exp to the enemy
    -Make Sudden Death spawn heavy minions in all lanes so Ivy can't permanently stall
    -Remove ability to turn Training Grounds into one lane so Sudden Death doesn't take forever
    -Official funeral for Stunning Accumulator
    Strongly agree on this point in particular


    Also i can't recall the last time i saw a boss on wave 1, but on most maps 3x giants/trolls/ogre + cooldown increase is worse and a lot more common. I also don't think it is necessarily a problem though that this can occur. 
  • Official funeral for Stunning Accumulator. lmao.  Truth. That "bug" was single handedly driving the build meta. 

    The problem with making maps with multiple lanes is that there become GLARING weaknesses that can be exploited by coordinated cards.  I highly recommend if you make maps with multiple lanes, that rotations between them is not too far/slow.  Otherwise the team will just focus spells on the lane with 1 and its gg.  Like make a skinny version of CC or UF with the lanes close together, but still separate.

    I like the new version of sudden death as well. It feels challenging, fair, and short.

    As for high tier play, I think the difference needs to lie in the minion and spell cards. Reason is coordinated attacks in earlier waves throws off even the best players.  I won on a wave 6 attack, lost on a wave 5 attack.  Some card combinations are really devastating.  Some minion cards synergize really well with certain maps.  I dont care how "good" you are at this game, you are never prepared for something you dont expect.  More targetable or timely(e.g. activates a sheild for x seconds upon casting) spell cards for more active attacks.  Encouraging teamwork is always a good way to expand the skill ceiling without having to elevate or change the average player (think professional sports, all are pretty damn good at what they do, but teamwork becomes the key factor)
  • TimeMasterTimeMaster Member, Early Access
    @ScifiToilet
    That hasn't really been our experience with the mode, the randomness/coordinated attack part atleast. When Sabotage came out there were several players and teams playing it, some more serious than others. I personally played  with my guild, in a somewhat "serious" way. But no further than a group of experienced players with voice chat.

    Most of use hadn't really played that much with each other before and we didn't take it to a pro level, not even close. However, there was pretty much no combo that could really make us lose before wave 8.

    Just by having somewhat thoughtful decks and hero comp according to the map, no combo was anything near 100% win. And I can say the same for other teams that we faced back then, there was just no way to score before wave 8.

    The most powerful items then for most people were Dance, Swifty, Bomb and disabling ones. But in reality, Bosses are extremely easy to kill just by having one or 2 BGH traps and a minimum of CC, and the rest are just about having the must Freedom Trinket and being aware of your position. Only way to score or get scored before Sudden Death was having someone mess up real bad.

    I agree though that after certain point of SD, it comes down to who got a deciding consumable. Since past some point, there was no way of killing a boss or some big minion on most maps. Now this changed a bit with the diminishing CC over time and having some spell like polymorph or CC immunity. But it's mostly just a shift of which consumables are game deciding and matches ending somewhat earlier.

    TL;DR I'm pretty sure any decent, not even close to pro, team with some insight and experience can have strats that can effectively counter everything before SD. SD is many times down to RNG on the best consumables or best use of them.
  • It doesnt sound like youve played enough sabotage recently. (please let me know otherwise) swifty is still strong but its not the only way to win.  Dance, bomb is still strong, but like you said its counter-able. Also the new cards really opened up the brute force method and they also made it easier to get hero kills.  Previously you basically had to land a bomb to gain any sort of advantage with the cards, but not so anymore. You might get stomped if you dismiss coordination so casually.

    Fuken and Pride have been playing together for some time now.  the same teams 3v3 for like dozens of matches and we have both made each other improve in a very noticeable fashion.  Out of a loss, I just came up with a new banquet hall build that is IMO better than everything currently out there and I attribute it to the fact that I keep playing against the same team over and over, sometimes winning, sometimes losing, but in all games learning.  Right now I agree the cards are a little weak and not super impactful that most everything can still be countered before sudden death, but that doesnt change the fact that teamwork wins games at any wave and unexpected cards can win the game.

    Ill admit Its still pretty RNG heavy tho.  But not so much you can casually dismiss coordination, even lame cards can combo together nicely or comically.  slow aura slow aura coin drain in a hallway is really funny.  

    What isnt RNG tho is trap setup and hero play. This is still the number1 factor in winning sabotage.  If every card combo fails  whoever has the best setup and plays their heroes the best wins.  Nothing RNG about that. Itd be nice if the game rewarded this aspect, but its hard for me to think of how right now.



Sign In or Register to comment.