Fire Elementals(Rift Lord)

So I just recently began attempting to do a few rift lord levels, but fire elementals are ruining everything. I'm not sure how to prevent them from just waltzing over to critical barricades and casually stomping them. I placed 3 distraction barricades in front of essential barricades. I tried using the reflect-damage-in-an-area-upon-death trap part on decoys in front of the walking elementals, and while 2 stopped to attack different ones, the rest kept going. I don't know what to do, but thus far my conclusion is that Rift Lord is not solo-friendly, meaning I'm pretty much done here:(
«1

Comments

  • Yeah fire elementals have changed now, they have the same AI as kolbold bombers. 

    They are still discussing changing them more.

    And also people say they have done rift lord solo, but it is a lot harder.
    Keep it secret, Keep it safe.
    New? Here are some Game Tipz.
  • From Shade's comments on it in that other thread, it kinda seemed like it's an unintended side effect of an AI fix for them that was meant for something else.  As it is right now, it's extremely unfair because they don't even give you a warning sound of their spawning, unlike kobold bombers, yet come in much larger numbers.
  • ShadeDevShadeDev Member, Robot Entertainment, Early Access, Apprentice Founder, Featured Developer
    edited September 5
    Well, it was an intended "fix".  They were always intended to work this way.

    HOWEVER, it sounds like the "fix" made firelings much less fun and too hard to deal with.  We obviously don't want that to be the case.

    Currently, we are thinking of lowering their speed/health and making only 1 spawn from a fire elemental.  What are your thoughts on this change?

    Alternatively, we are considering reverting the "fix" to firelings.
    Doug Houserman
    Robot Entertainment | Lead Balance Designer
  • SemiFantasticSemiFantastic Member
    edited September 5
    ShadeDev said:
    Well, it was an intended "fix".  They were always intended to work this way.

    HOWEVER, it sounds like the "fix" made firelings much less fun and too hard to deal with.  We obviously don't want that to be the case.

    Currently, we are thinking of lowering their speed/health and making only 1 spawn from a fire elemental.  What are your thoughts on this change?

    Alternatively, we are considering reverting the "fix" to firelings.
    I'd rather have the old firelings back. They're like kamikaze guys but for heroes/guardians and I feel like that's a good unique enemy from the rest.

    I do like the sound of spawning them at 1-2 per elemental though Makes them dangerous but not hard to deal with. 
  • I think that reverting them might be a better idea.
    Even before the "fix" they were a threat to the barricades because of their splash damage. Right now they are ridiculosly powerfull especially on maps which have full wave of fire elementals (Throne Room rift lord for example)
    If you decide to nerf them instead, it might be a better idea to lower their damage instead of health. They don't seem as powerfull as kamikaze kobolds appearance wise but they deal same amount of damage.

  • That sounds great @Shadedev. At the moment you cannot deal with them using ranged Heroes when you are far into an endless run.
    Keep it secret, Keep it safe.
    New? Here are some Game Tipz.
  • yup I did prefer them like they were before,

    like @SirSleepsALot said on Throne room they`re  pain to deal with, and Gate of thuricvod on Rit Lord, is just a nightmare with the new firelings.

    I wold keep 2 spawn per fire elemental, that was a nice danger, but it his manageable

  • ShadeDev said:
    Well, it was an intended "fix".  They were always intended to work this way.

    HOWEVER, it sounds like the "fix" made firelings much less fun and too hard to deal with.  We obviously don't want that to be the case.

    Currently, we are thinking of lowering their speed/health and making only 1 spawn from a fire elemental.  What are your thoughts on this change?

    Alternatively, we are considering reverting the "fix" to firelings.
    Please don't change them back.
    The old Firelings were quite useless and no real threat in Sabotage but now it's worth it to send Fire Elementals again.
  • I feel like the old firelings were sort of weak (only really a danger to like pre-10 midnight), but the new ones are OP. Easily the best summon on some sabotage maps despite being uncommon rarity.  There's no legitimate counter I can think of other than the "just equip overprotective and play the game next to your barricades :^)" meme.  Can't even flip the fire elemental away from your barricades without the firelings spawning next to your barricades (and due to the guaranteed splash damage, impossible to prevent your barricade being damaged).

    Maybe make it so if you kill them before they "detonate" it doesn't damage your barricade.  That way they would require your attention to deal with them like sappers, but at least give you a chance to stop them.  
  • Why do you want to change the only thing that can break high rank Sabotage killboxes?
  • ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member
    edited September 6
    Personally I feel like they should "burn out." 

    I like the risk they pose but I feel there should be a bit more counterplay possible. If their health and/or damage dissapaited after spawning they would still be a risk to barricades if there were killed within the kill boxes but they could be countered by trying to kill fire elementals before they reached the kill boxes.

    As others have mentioned they become a bit of an issue on Rift Lord Throne Room but my complaint is less that they destroy my kill box cades but more that if I kill them at the main gate the firelings will destroy the 3 kill box barricades and then float all the way through the kitchen to destroy the barricade blocking the back path as well in one wave.

    I like the threat, especially in sabotage, but I would like a bit more counterplay. Keep the threat to the kill boxes but let's not have them be able to float indefinitely. 


  • How are you even supposed to do anything to those? For the life of me I cannot figure out what the counterplay to the old or the new fire elementals are.

    If you kill them, they explode and damage your barricades and whatever else is near them.
    If you ignore them, your killbox will probably kill them and they still deal damage to barricades and so on.

    It's a lose/lose situation wherever they are in the map, and they are like my most hated enemy as a result - because there's just nothing it feels like I can do about them.
  • well they're still vulnerable to hard CC and physical traps, your best bet ist to catch them early, use knockbacks and fliptraps, slows, stuns and kill them as early as possible or throw them out of the map, though mostly their flames will run trough and deal damage to your barricades, but the best one can do is to minimize the damage...
  • Maybe instead of exploding they could function like the fire ogres and just do a low damage over time in an AOE? Then at least we have a chance to mitigate their damage. Otherwise it's like Purromancer said, they are a total lose-lose situation and there's very little you can do aside from just kiss your barricades goodbye.

    I do like the idea of them burning out over time. Like they only live for a few seconds as they try to hunt down barricades before they detonate. Then you could actually deal with them ahead of your killbox effectively, and they couldn't just roam the map taking out barricades.

    Personally I don't think enemies should still explode when killed at all, including gnomes and kobolds. Yeah they do reduced damage I guess but it's still a big FU to players who care more about mazing than shooting. Between suicide bombers and tnt archers and bosses that destroy barricades, this game really does go out of it's way with enemies that just orc on any attempt to killbox at the higher levels.
  • ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member
    edited September 6
    tronixde said:
    well they're still vulnerable to hard CC and physical traps, your best bet ist to catch them early, use knockbacks and fliptraps, slows, stuns and kill them as early as possible or throw them out of the map
    This isn't entirely accurate.
    If you flip actual fire elementals into the drink/void they still spawn firelings where they last were in the map. If they didn't then on most maps I think there would be adequate counterplay.

    Due to the firelings spawning no matter what, on most maps they tend to get to my barricades even if they don't get to destroy them. This is the main reason I feel like a burn out feature would be an ideal solution. On most maps if traps are set up to kill Fire Elementals before the kill box the firelings tend to be able to reach the kill box area before any traps can kill them.

    Again that isn't the end of the world to me. Frustrating? Sure. But who wants the game to be effortless?

    While having one kill box at least partially incapacitated hurts it can be dealt with . What bothers me is that while I deal with the minions getting through the crippled kill box the firelings float halfway acorss the map and open back doors by destroying barricades blocking side passages.

    If they only lasted 10 seconds or so before burning out they would still reach most kill boxes, thus maintaining the challenge, but they will be less likely to kill you or rip apart defenses in other lanes while dealing with the mess they made. Let's keep the challenge but add in some counterplay/damage control.
  • I experimented a bit with Throne Room Endless mode and came up with a trap set up that was extremely effective at dealing with the fire elementals:

    Top spawn door - barricade to force minions to use path near wall.  Place push traps at diagonals of octagonal island.  Place tar at beginning of path by the wall (immediately after shield guardian).  Place 2 spike wall traps on wall.  If you have them with kinetic reclaimers, put push traps on octagonal island to push them into the spike walls.

    Bottom spawn door - Push traps with kinetic reclaimers on opposite walls at the spawn door.  One row of tar and then two rows of flip traps or floor scorchers to flip minions back into the spawn door (never flip towards the rift).  Swinging maces on the roof help push things into the push traps.

    This works really well whether you are setting up a kill box by the kitchen or by the priest/friar guardians.  $.02
  • Axony said:
    Why do you want to change the only thing that can break high rank Sabotage killboxes?
    I like the fact that they break killboxes.
    I dislike the fact that nothing can be done about it.

    On one hand it feels good summoning them and winning a match because your enemy couldn't do anything to prevent them destroying crucial barricades, on the other hand it feels bad losing because fire elementals destroyed crucial barricades and there was nothing you could do about it.  Every summon/spell in Sabotage has counterplay to it as far as I can tell, but unless I'm missing something obvious there is no counterplay to fire elementals. 
  • rayleiraylei Member
    edited September 8
    push traps facing each other op op 


     
    old video 
    So this is how we add small words under our post/comments.
  • NarkhNarkh Member
    edited September 8
    ShadeDev said:
    Currently, we are thinking of lowering their speed/health and making only 1 spawn from a fire elemental.  What are your thoughts on this change?
    I have always seen Firelings as an exploding threat to heroes rather than barricades, provided the player controls fire elementals well enough to avoid deaths in-between barricades. The current version could be described as 'a better version of kamikaze kobolds, coming in greater numbers, without an audible warning'.

    I'm afraid I don't agree with proposed changes as lowering Fireling health is only going to make them more volatile and high speed is necessary for them to be a threat to heroes. Lowering their numbers simply makes them more like other exploding threats.

    I'd like to make the following suggestions:
    - replace Firelings with Fire Elementals in waves (ratio 2:1), so they only spawn after Fire Elemental deaths - to allow the player greater control of the fire elemental pack and remove the annoyance of dealing with exploding mobs without an audible warning
    - stop Firelings from spawning when fire elementals die in battleground hazards (alternatively if the former presents a difficulty in coding - lower the damage Firelings deal to barricades, thus making them a more balanced version of swarmer-bombers)
  • raylei said:
    push traps facing each other op op 


     
    old video 
    Push traps are great.

«1
Sign In or Register to comment.