Slowing traps upgrades are additive or multiplicative?

I've been using viscous tar in all my builds so far, but i've started looking at web spinner for my Tundra build, but the initial 25% slow feels underwhelming. My question is, are upgrades additive or multiplicative? If it is additive, a tier 7 Web Spinner would offer a 55% slow, which is almost on par with the 59% provided by a tier 7 viscous tar. If it's multiplicative, i'll probably stay with the tar instead of wasting skulls on the web.

Thanks!

Comments

  • TimeMasterTimeMaster Member, Early Access
    It's not additive. Not sure if it's multiplicative or something else like diminishing returns. 
  • I have no idea. But I do know different slows do stacks, but not in a very significant way. Don't know how it works. Don't think I've seen a dev actually explain how. 
  • Tier 7 tar says 40% base 21%, so I assume it's 61% on T7
  • I want to say all is multiplicative, like :

    monster speed = 100 * (1 - slow 1) * (1 - slow 2) * (1 - slow 3) * ... * (1 + speed buffs)  in %


    tar trap is 40% * 1.21 = 48.4% => speed falls to 51.6%

    web spinner is 25% * 1.3 = 32.5% => speed falls to 67.5%

    when the 2 are applied, monster speed falls to 100 * (1-0.484) * (1-0.325) = 34.83% of normal speed.


    but some monsters have controls resistance like on chaos trials with the controls resistance or high waves in endless, so slow 1/2/3... will have reduced values.




  • TimeMasterTimeMaster Member, Early Access
    @Sou1Reaper How can you know? It can't even be tested consistently.

    We don't even know what's the proper values of slow for the upgrades. As confirmed with the rest of traps, the accumulated value of the upgrades in the dashboard isn't accurate for most cases. Some trap upgrades are additive while others are multiplicative, some even affect different named stats which need conversion to know the upgraded values.

    So I'd take that 21% with a pinch of salt...

    How can you tell that the slows are stacked by:

    1-((1-SlowOne)*(1-SlowTwo))

    SlowOne+((1-Slow One)*SlowTwo)

    instead of something like:

    SQRT(SlowOne^2+SlowTwo^2)
  • Science talks after some experiences on lights orcs in baths, building lines with great barricades.
    That's more what you're thinking TimeMaster.

    Real slow debuff is like 93.5% of the indicated value (the more they are slowed, the more they move in a straight line i've seen).
    Tar trap tier7 is 61%, additive (57% in reality)
    Web spinner tier7 is 32.5%, multiplicative (30% in reality)

    Tar+web tier7 will be in theory sqrt(0.61^2+0.325^2)=69.1%
    but in reality it's 0.935*sqrt(0.61^2+0.325^2)=64.6% !

    Web spinner will not add much slow to the first one unfortunately and we can see it in-game.

    To hard to test with 3 sources of slow :(




  • TimeMasterTimeMaster Member, Early Access
    @Sou1Reaper Sorry but I don't think anyone is following what you are saying.

    What do you even mean by "real" or "in reality"? "the more they are slowed, the more they move in a straight line i've seen" what does that even mean, the trajectory/pathing??

    Even if you test with a straight line and so on, there are so many things that can make it very inconsistent. Minions bumping into each other, not applying the slow consistently, not knowing the actual slow values or how are they even stack, etc.

    Also, how do you even know if the slow reduction is applied to ech of the slows instead of the actual minion speed?

    The SQRT formula I just made it up on the spot to show that there would be no way of consistently testing it and be able to distinguish between let's say 77% slow and 80% slow. Resulting on having no idea of what formula is being used at all or even knowing the amount of slow applied to minions.
  • I did 5 experiences with chronometer then some statistics.
    Each one was only one light orc (i've killed the others from far away, no interactions).
    Length of the test is 4 tar traps.
    My tar traps are tier7, my web spinners are tier5.

    I've measured the travel time to cross the 4 traps tar, when no traps, when 4 tar+ 4 web spinners, when 4 web spinners.
    Then i delete the highest and the lowest time for each and i find :

    No trap : 3.51 | 3.59 | 3.63 => average time 3.58 sec
    4 Tar traps : 8.30 | 8.34 | 8.35 => average time 8.33 sec
    4 Web spinners : 4.99 | 4.94 | 4.93 => average time 4.95 sec
    4 Tar+Web : 9.31 | 9.23 | 9.30 => average time 9.28 sec


    No trap time / Tar traps time = 3.58 / 8.33 = 42.94 % speed  => slow is 100 - 42.94 = 57.06 %
    Supposed to be 61% at tier7 so 57.06 / 61 = 0.935.

    No trap time / Web spinners time = 3.58 / 4.95 = 72.21% speed => slow is 100 - 72.21 = 27.79%
    Supposed to be 30% at tier5 so 27.79 / 30 = 0.926.

    No trap time / Tar+Web time = 3.58 / 9.28 = 38.54% speed => slow is 100 - 38.54 = 61.46 %
    Supposed to be sort of sqrt (0.61^2+0.3^2) = 0.6573 = 65.73% so 61.46 / 65.73 = 0.935.

    The 0.935 must be something like : Straight line length / Random curved line while not heavily slowed.

    When they are more then 2 slow applied, it can works as a stair (global slow = hypotenuse) : 
    3 debuffs : 0.935*max [ sqrt((slow1+slow2)^2+slow3^2) ; sqrt((slow1+slow3)^2+slow2^2) ; sqrt((slow1^2+(slow2+slow3)^2) ]
    Hard to test it, but will not be worth anyways.
  • TimeMasterTimeMaster Member, Early Access
    I tested a while ago too, can't really remember the actual numbers but I remember the conclusions. And are pretty much the same as yours.

    The movement isn't consistent and there is quite some variation on times. That's fine though, you can average it like you did.

    However, the traps create more problems. The upgrades don't really make sense with the times. As you point out, a difference from in theory 57% to 61%. But that 61% is probably not the actual value of the slow of tar, since the upgrade tooltip says "Slow debuff strength", which most likely means at Tier 7 that 21% (we don't even know if this number is correct or it should actually be calculated multiplicatively) is a boost of the base 40% not additive, but a improve of 21%, making it 40% * 1.21 = 48.4% Slow at Tier 7.

    Even if the upgrades were multiplicative, it would be 49.2% Slow at Tier 7. Then if slowing that much, web spinner might lose its effect before reaching the next one too or tars have a slight space between them, etc. In worst case it should be faster than in theory but it's totally the opposite.

    I have no clue of what you are calculating with the square root formula but the slows in this game seem like they can't reach 100% and make minions stop while that formula allows numbers over 100%, so I don't think it makes much sense to try formulas "randomly".

    Because if it weren't a simple thing like multiplicative, it could be any arbitrary logaritmic function with limits on an arbitrary number aswell (like capping slow at 80% as a random example) making it almost impossible to figure out which formula is used with that many inconsistencies in the data.

    Web Spinner on T5, would be 25% slow +20% debuff strength, making it 25*1.20=30%. That would mean that the difference between Tar and Spinner should be of around 18% (Being Tar T7 48.4% Slow and Web Spinner T5 30%), while in your results its of more than 30%.

    Web Spinner results seem to somewhat fit the expected, but Tar isn't even close. It might just be that not even the Base value of 40% Slow is correct.

    In your numbers you say that Tar is 61% and Web Spinner 32.5% but the traps can't be using different way of calculating their Slow strength, that's a big inconsistency itself.

  • Upgrades description is a great fail here yes.

    See Haymaker, saying +16% re-fire but it's wrote  +100*1.16^6 % in the description
    while other physics traps are wrote additively +10*tier %

    Or Overload trap, saying +16 dmg/tier and written +100*1.16^6 in the description
    just don't know if it's in % increased or an addition.

    Web spinners and tars have the same description but it's a lie :)

    To conclude, tar traps looks more like 61 then 48.4 and web spinner 32.5 then 55 :)

    just use web spinners if you want to Bionka or Temper for many knockbacks and fun !
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