Trap's Efficiency Tier List

cyberfailzorcyberfailzor Member
edited November 13 in General Discussion
Decided I should also post this somewhere else more visible.

Original topic: http://forums.orcsmustdie.com/discussion/14547/brimstone-fire-cracker-discussion/p1?new=1

So, I went ahead did some math and came up with this Efficiency Tier List for damage traps (I did round up some values):
C builds might be slightly less efficient than portrayed because I'm not sure whether I gotta multiply the base CD by 1.15 or divide by 0.85, I did the first.

               
Charging Spring=A
Double Spring=B
Short Spring=C

discount+20%recharge coil=BB Roller A
2x20%recharge coil=BB Roller B
2xdiscount coil=BB Roller C


FLOOR



Ice Vent C        0.21       damage per second per coin spent
C.Ground C        0.2
S. of Arctos C        0.2
S. of Arctos A        0.19
S. of Arctos B        0.18
Scorcher C        0.18
Scorcher A        0.17
Summoner T.        0.17
Scorcher B        0.16
Ice Vent A        0.15
Ice Vent B        0.14
F.Spikes C        0.14
F.Spikes A        0.13
F.Spikes B        0.12
C.Ground A        0.11
C.Ground B        0.09
Ice Shard C        0.08
Ice Shard A        0.08
Ice Shard B        0.07
F.Cracker        0.04
Brimstone        0.03


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WALL


Arrow Wall C        0.68
Arrow Wall A        0.66
Arrow Wall B        0.59
Spitfire W. C        0.35
Spitfire W. A        0.34
Spitfire W. B        0.3
Arcane BB C        0.2
Arcane BB A        0.18
Arcane BB B        0.15
Grinder    C        0.13
BB Roller C        0.12
Wall Blades C        0.11
Wall Blades A        0.1
Wall Blades B        0.09
Grinder    A        0.09
Grinder    B        0.08
BB Roller B        0.08
BB Roller A        0.07
W.Charger        0.06


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CEILING



L.Rod C            0.39
L.Rod A            0.39
L.Rod B            0.35
Mace C            0.32
Q.Pounder C        0.3
Q.Pounder A        0.29
Mace A            0.27
Q.Pounder B        0.26
Mace B            0.23
Pounder C        0.16
Pounder A        0.15
Pounder B        0.14
Overload C        0.14
Haymaker C        0.13
S.Zapper C        0.13
Overload A        0.12
Haymaker A        0.12
S.Zapper A        0.12
S.Zapper B        0.11
Haymaker B        0.1
Overload B        0.1
C.Ballista C        0.04
D.Lance C        0.04
D.Lance A        0.04
D.Lance B        0.03

This is:
Assuming Charge-traps other than Brimstone consume a charge every 0.65s no matter the amount of minions on it (like Grinder), would have to test.
Assuming Arrow Wall and Spitfire Wall's projectiles pierce.
Assuming Arrow Wall hits with at least 60% of its arrows.
Assuming Spitfire Wall hits with at least 30% of its arrows.
Accounting for Ballistas to fire at least twice at a single minion going through the killbox.
Assuming the trap runs Stamped Parts when possible, except Summoner Trap which is always more efficient with Subsidized Parts.
Assuming Summoner Trap attacks every 1.5s and doesn't run out, as it should, just use Gnomish repair Kit, it's meant for that trap.
Assuming Cursed Ground's warm-up time is per trap, not per minion.
Not accounting for Arcane Debuff.
Not accounting for generators' damage buffs, possible debuffs, triggers' resets and so on.
Not accounting for traits.

Didn't account an average number of minions per square, instead decided to divide by said average (3 minions when crowded) Ballistas' and Ice Shard's efficiency instead of multiplying it for every other trap, this also means that more minions= less Ballistas, Ice Shard and Brimstone/Fire Cracker efficiency (Because their charges go out on contact instead of a fixed duration per charge); just as I multiplied by Nsquares affected larger-range traps where Arcane BB's just 3 squares (as other Arrow traps), Saw of arctos is 2, Scorcher 4 and Haymaker 4.

You might notice some Traps don't appear to be listed with different builds even though they could, this is because, when rounded up, some traps displayed pretty much the same efficiency; also, I'm only considering a Short Spring build for C.Ballista because, let's be honest, who'd rather spend 1800, or 2250 over 1260 coin on a trap that's only important when spammed as its value goes up against single targets?

Double Spring builds' efficiency goes up when crowded, while Short's go down, so do take that in account.



Comments

  • TimeMasterTimeMaster Member, Early Access
    Don't get me wrong here, the work is cool, but I don't think comparing traps to each other like that really shows which are most efficient, I think this can be pretty misleading. It's can be interesting within the same trap using different parts though.
    • Arrow wall and spitfire wall arrows don't pierce. Also 60% of hits is very unlikely, seems to miss A LOT unless very packed and mostly big minions are in front of it.
    • You aren't accounting for any delay on activation, most traps have delay on activation, and there are variations, that is a timer that needs to be added to the cooldown.

    I'm not sure of what did you do with the amount of minions or targets, I read the paragraph like 5 times and I can't really understand how you calculated for the squares. Do you mean that you accounted that 1x1 traps hit 3 minions per activation?

    I guess you also compared all traps as Tier 7? Because damage doesn't add linearly when upgraded to T7 and if you compared with T1, the parts couldn't be slotted. In this same line, cheaper traps at tier 7 interact differently than expensive ones with different springs (in the comparison per coin)

    Leaving aside the fact that having traps activated all the time compared to charge based and compared to single and multiple target at the same time is a quite questionable way of comparing traps, if I'm totally honest, this listings hardly match what is actually the most efficient in the real deal.

    What I'm gonna add now might only apply for endgame such as Sabotage or RL CT past ~Tier8, but Stamped parts are pretty much never better than subsidized parts, because atleast on endgame, the first few waves are what decide if you can hold or not. The Snowballing of economy by using subsidized parts makes a way bigger difference than using stamped parts. 

    Also ofcourse this direct comparisons don't take into account the special stats of some traps, like Arcane BB having unlimited range, scorcher dealing x4 damage to minions airborned by itself, lightning splash damage produced from kills from lightning traps, etc. 


  • Don't get me wrong here, the work is cool, but I don't think comparing traps to each other like that really shows which are most efficient, I think this can be pretty misleading. It's can be interesting within the same trap using different parts though.
    • Arrow wall and spitfire wall arrows don't pierce. Also 60% of hits is very unlikely, seems to miss A LOT unless very packed and mostly big minions are in front of it.
    • You aren't accounting for any delay on activation, most traps have delay on activation, and there are variations, that is a timer that needs to be added to the cooldown.

    I'm not sure of what did you do with the amount of minions or targets, I read the paragraph like 5 times and I can't really understand how you calculated for the squares. Do you mean that you accounted that 1x1 traps hit 3 minions per activation?

    I guess you also compared all traps as Tier 7? Because damage doesn't add linearly when upgraded to T7 and if you compared with T1, the parts couldn't be slotted. In this same line, cheaper traps at tier 7 interact differently than expensive ones with different springs (in the comparison per coin)

    Leaving aside the fact that having traps activated all the time compared to charge based and compared to single and multiple target at the same time is a quite questionable way of comparing traps, if I'm totally honest, this listings hardly match what is actually the most efficient in the real deal.

    What I'm gonna add now might only apply for endgame such as Sabotage or RL CT past ~Tier8, but Stamped parts are pretty much never better than subsidized parts, because atleast on endgame, the first few waves are what decide if you can hold or not. The Snowballing of economy by using subsidized parts makes a way bigger difference than using stamped parts. 

    Also ofcourse this direct comparisons don't take into account the special stats of some traps, like Arcane BB having unlimited range, scorcher dealing x4 damage to minions airborned by itself, lightning splash damage produced from kills from lightning traps, etc.
    1. I do have doubts on some traps, like arrow wall, as you said they don't pierce minions, but the in-game preview video shows projectile piercing so that's why I put it there, I'd need more people or evidence to point that out ofc this is a work in progress and anything that contributes to it would help.

    2. Since the number of traps that can't hit more than 1 minion is limited I decided to just leave it to amount of squares affected, as per said single-target traps I did assume a minimum of 3 minions per square, so divided by that and multiplied x2 since that's usually the amount of hits ballistas can score on a minion passing throughout their range, please correct me if that was wrong.

    3. Yes it's all t7.

    4. It's a start, I can't really see topics discussing it so I put this up, how would you calculate/compare'em?

    5. You are correct about subsidized parts, but having those 500 coins lying around is a boost on the whole play, not just the trap, so I decided to stick to a safer variable that others could tweak to their needs.

    6. I did mention I only calculated 3 squares for Arcane BB, it's so people can tweak it into what they need.
    I did not know that about Scorcher's throw, does it last until the mob gets up?
    I did google a bit but I honestly can't find how much splash damage they do (lightning traps), or what's it based on, Devs never replied to those questions, so, being speculation I didn't add it.

  • This tier list doesnt really help me.  I think its very obvious that bunching up minions will greatly increase efficiency of some traps.  I would argue that positioning  and timing of traps is far more important to its overall efficiency than simply coin.  I would say coin is statistically irrelevant compared to positioning and timing because most traps only have a single 1 time cost but will differ greatly in its efficiency if 1 minion activates it or if 5 do. I feel like an analysis based on # of minions at activation would be more beneficial.  Perhaps try it with 1 trap.  a graph of dmg/second/coin vs # of minions at activation would be far more beneficial.  That would actually show you which traps to use when youre broke.  This would help one choose which trap to use at early waves to get the most dmg for their limited coin. 

    I just dont see how the above analysis helps anyone . There is no application. Good effort tho
  • cyberfailzorcyberfailzor Member
    edited November 14
    I feel like an analysis based on # of minions at activation would be more beneficial.  Perhaps try it with 1 trap.  a graph of dmg/second/coin vs # of minions at activation would be far more beneficial.  That would actually show you which traps to use when youre broke.  This would help one choose which trap to use at early waves to get the most dmg for their limited coin. 
    Can't we just count squares (X) and leave the exponential part to whoever's reading? It's clear that single target traps go down while others go up.
    Maybe I should just mark what's what to make it clearer?
  • I mean... Judging by your tier list, the Ice Vent is the best floor trap in the game, when in reality, it's really underwhelming. Or am I mistaken? I always considered it to be garbage, since it does very little damage and is so big you can't really use many other traps with it, nor can you use barricades to maximize its efficiency.
  • TimeMasterTimeMaster Member, Early Access
    I still don't understand your calculations or explanations in point 2.

    Could you post the formula you used for the numbers? 


    Every minion gets 4x damage while airborne. Lightning splash damage has 2 components, base dmg and a % of minion HP.

  • cyberfailzorcyberfailzor Member
    edited November 14
    I mean... Judging by your tier list, the Ice Vent is the best floor trap in the game, when in reality, it's really underwhelming. Or am I mistaken? I always considered it to be garbage, since it does very little damage and is so big you can't really use many other traps with it, nor can you use barricades to maximize its efficiency.
    I think so too, you can't even combo properly with it (unless you use it strictly to freeze with, then it's 3 combo points (damage, freeze and combo generator on some other trap), TBH it's supposed to be camping spot for Hogarth I think, still let's take this as a way to test out traps, are its charges actually consumed every 0.65s or not? A lot of numbers would change if it wasn't so, I can't quite figure it out because there's so little indicating the trap is active as opposed to Brimstone, it's just some particle effect that may linger, it's confusing really.

    It'd be like this:
    Cost: 1500
    Damage:
    (assuming its charges are consumed every 0.65s no matter the amount of minions on it)
    (25base damage) x (4 squares) x (2.44 tier7 stats) x 30 charges
    Cooldown+time to consume all charges (a full recharge):
    12s/1.2 (20% charged spring with a balanced build A) + (0.65sx30charges)= 10s+19.5s=29.5s

    (Damage/second)/coin:
    So (7320/29.5)/1500=0.165 damage per second per coin spent


    I still don't understand your calculations or explanations in point 2.

    Could you post the formula you used for the numbers?
    I'm not averaging number of orcs per square, I'm just leaving it "per square", letting whoever refers to the tier list assume the correct amount of minions it'll hit since maps and waves can change wildly.

    Use the above calcs I just posted for reference.
    Just to be clearer lemme also lay out scorcher A:

    Cost: 1000
    Damage:
    31x4sx2.44 (t7)x4 (squares hit)=1210
    Cooldown:
    8.4/1.2(20% charged spring)=7s

    (Damage/second)/coin:
    So (1210/7)/1000=0.173


    As per Ballista traps it's a bit of a naive formula but, eh, someone would correct me if people got interested enough:
    (formula as above) / (average minions per square, I counted 3) x (minimum hits that Ballistas should manage to perform on the single minion targeted by the trap throughout the path, I counted 2)

    Now that I think about it maybe the last part should be, minimum hits on every single minion passing through the killbox, but then again it'd be even more speculation, so maybe I should just divide by minion average and let the cooldown speak for itself? If so just halve its current efficiency.

    C.Ballista C:
    cost: 1800x0.7(short spring)=1260
    Damage:
    155x2.44 (t7)=372
    Cooldown:
    4.4x1.15(short spring)=5.1
    OR
    4.4/0.85(short spring)=5.2

    (Damage/second)/coin:
    (372/5.2)/1260=0.057

    0.057/(minion average per square)


  • cyberfailzor  i think that your work is very interesting and i would like to invite you to the NuNs discord server where we have a theory_crafting channel were we discuss different strategies, trap combinations and so on. If you are interested in checking the community out let me know (you DO NOT have to join the guild in order to be on the discord server). See you arround.
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