About Chaos Trials difficulty

DoctorKoboldDoctorKobold Member
edited November 18 in General Discussion
Hi,

Big fan of the game from the ground up, I think CT is the best thing to play and gives a good reason to play and replay the maps with a different challenge everytime. Some modifyers combos make a really tough challenge and you sometimes finish the game with the hands shivering and the heart close to exploding and that's really good.

But...

I have a problem (is it only me?) with almost all the keys Master and RL starting from T7. I now have like more than 30 keys I just won't do because I just don't want to anymore. When the difficulty is not just insane because of the dramatic increase of minion resistance (ie, in T7, with Midnight it takes you like 5 2nd click slashes to take down  a big ogre when it takes only 1 normally), and the modifyers combo makes them impossible to play also. Imagine the Gates of Thuricvod with Spawning protection, fast minions, rush timer, expensive barricades, 2x wall traps and add kamikaze, rugged runners, all together! And I have now dozens of keys with that type of mischieving combo.

Not only foes get dramatically stronger but traps quickly become quite useless, as effective as a feather for fighting a crocodile. Thus even more mouse strokes are necessary to kill everything... when you can because at the same you have the additional unstable rift ringing for your attention all the time...

I am sure you may find some hardcore players who will say it's no big deal, that I'm maybe a bad player and such. But what I think is maybe it's doable but it's just not fun anymore. A match on T7 lasts an average of 25-30mn compared to a normal 10-15mn on survival, hitting the mouse strokes like a maniac all the time, for a nearly zero chance of success. For just gaining a few gibs and skulls I don't need. A big and avoidable waste of time IMO.

It's a shame because all the fun of the CT concept is suddenly vanished by the difficulty increase. For me, the difficulty is fun when you have to dodge shots, spare resources, think strategic, run, kill increased numbers and types of foes too, I even had fun playing your insane par time on Water Garden. Because it makes sense. I think playing high difficulty CT doesn't make sense anymore.

Still love the game though, no doubt about that.

Cheers.
Post edited by DoctorKobold on

Comments

  • Yup the difficulty raises dramatically from T7. No idea what Algorithm there, but minions suddenly have high Damage Resistance, Control  Resistance, and they move very Fast! Not to mention the modifiers.
  • I have found that the higher lvls are about crowd control - keeping the minions trapped in a killbox for as long as possible. That said, yeah some keys are just absurd and I play them just to enjoy the madness, expecting to lose. Also - keys with 3 polymorph mods? Chaos keys are a great addition to the game but need some tweaking.
  • I personally believe Chaos Trials were meant to be difficult DUE TO MODIFIERS, not due to health scaling. At it's current state, it's just Endless that throws spells from Sabotage at you, but has actual rewards that could be considered "worth it".

    In my opinion the best thing to do would be to tone down health scaling by A LOT and make modifiers more relevant and unique. Or if Robot really wants to keep minion powerspike from T7 and onward, then increase the rewards for T7 and higher, so it's high risk- high reward, not like it is currently: high risk - mediocre reward.

    Also, can we get a rework on no go-breaks already
    It's literally gamebreaking for some people
    RObot
    please
  • TeckTeck Member
    I don't mind the enemy scaling, but I do believe that it is too staggered as it is now.  The fact that everyone unanimously agrees that the jump T6 to T7 is so clearly pumped up in difficulty seems to me to be a sign that the scaling from tier to tier isn't smooth enough.
  • ShadeDevShadeDev Member, Robot Entertainment, Early Access, Apprentice Founder, Featured Developer
    Teck said:
    I don't mind the enemy scaling, but I do believe that it is too staggered as it is now.  The fact that everyone unanimously agrees that the jump T6 to T7 is so clearly pumped up in difficulty seems to me to be a sign that the scaling from tier to tier isn't smooth enough.
    The health increase is the same at every tier.

    I would love to transition things away from health scaling and instead depend on the modifiers, however, the modifiers simply do not offer enough challenge.

    It's not as simple as making them more difficult.  Can you imagine primary attack knockback, spudging pickups, periodic bomb, no go breaks, etc becoming more difficult?  In fact, most of these are tuned to be as difficult as possible without becoming frustrating.

    I encourage you to think about changes you would make to each modifier to achieve your goal.
    Doug Houserman
    Robot Entertainment | Lead Balance Designer
  • TeckTeck Member
    edited November 24
    ShadeDev said:
    Teck said:
    I don't mind the enemy scaling, but I do believe that it is too staggered as it is now.  The fact that everyone unanimously agrees that the jump T6 to T7 is so clearly pumped up in difficulty seems to me to be a sign that the scaling from tier to tier isn't smooth enough.
    The health increase is the same at every tier.

    I would love to transition things away from health scaling and instead depend on the modifiers, however, the modifiers simply do not offer enough challenge.

    It's not as simple as making them more difficult.  Can you imagine primary attack knockback, spudging pickups, periodic bomb, no go breaks, etc becoming more difficult?  In fact, most of these are tuned to be as difficult as possible without becoming frustrating.

    I encourage you to think about changes you would make to each modifier to achieve your goal.
    Curiously, is the health increase at each tier a percentile increase or a static number?  I find it interesting that, as I previously stated, the comments I've read seem to collectively point to T7 as the level when you can really feel it.  I wonder if this just happens to be the tipping point rather than a scaling issue.  If it is the same as you said from tier to tier then it surprises me that I'd have come to feel this way and see others point to this as well.  If the variable is a percentile as oppose to static, then I'd understand the bump being more obvious.
  • TeckTeck Member
    edited November 24
    As for the modifiers, that's not specifically something I was taking into concern for this. I have quite a few keys at T7 and it seems that regardless of modifier variations I get the same bump then. I generally do change hero/trap combos to reflect the mods, but this was mostly just curiousity in how enemy scaling specifically was working. Thanks!
  • cyberfailzorcyberfailzor Member
    edited November 26
    I too feel like the tipping point is t7, I did manage to get past that solo, but that was abusing specific killboxes with Summoner Trap (+Gnomish repair kit) and Concussive Pounders to constantly aggro minions rotating with my hero, that is, when maps allowed me to do so, because you can't quite do that when there's multiple gates and you can't funnel minions.

    I don't really like playing with other people either (thus the multiple gates thing), because t7 is the tier that proves whether a team truly works or not, because the health modifiers stack so much it can get absurd amounts of hits to kill a single Giant.

    Maybe it's like this (regarding the "tipping point" argument):
    > extra health at a certain scaling means minions can survive the main killbox.
    > they scatter unless you put most of your starting coin into cades, which means even more minions to kill.
    > you have to kill said minions (which come in many types, so mixes of runners and such, which mean some will likely get past because no hero can do everything).
    > killed minions drop very little coin because they weren't affected by any trap and thus not providing many combos.
    > snowball effect.

    On a note I think Coin Generator can really help early on, that's extra early investment coin however, especially considering you need to put barricades down (which may be affected by cost modifiers, I mean, good luck on Eventide Fortress with Expensive Barricades).

    Also I think some modifiers break specific maps, like Spawn Protection on Gates of Thuricvod, that's just nasty, couple that with ANY other single mod affecting runners (or an "extra Giants" per wave, coming on the sides of the main gates... *shivers*) and you got yourself one frustrating combo, so many elementals too.

    Another example is Throne Room and extra kamikaze kobolds, after the tweak to Fire Elementals' sparks targeting 'cades, having enough dummy Barricades on the Southern side's a challenge by itself, especially considering there's so little room for them and not having Barricades there means game over, now couple all that with Persistent Rubble and you got yourself something that's definitely more frustrating than fun.


    Here's a tip for Devs, I'll be naming 2 difficulty systems implemented by the games: Kid Icarus Uprising and Dungeon Warfare.

    -Kid Icarus Uprising: uses a most peculiar system for difficulty scaling, it'd be long to explain in words so here's the perfect vid for this purpose:

    As you can see the Gauge affects Difficulty on many levels, perhaps that's what we need too (at least for minions' health), so as to know just how much scaling we're facing/choosing, as to avoid frustration and stacks of unused t8+ keys, do note that the system also affects rewards.


    -Dungeon Warfare: Once a map is completed you can run it again with the ability to pick any amount of mods (which you can choose freely) affecting minions, which also affects the rewards accordingly (so each mod has a different "reward level").

    I can't but think we could implement those systems and it'd simply work wonders, I mean, it'd allow people to get used to specific mods in a specific map without going overboard with the scaling and increasing it little by little with practice, shifting the "frustration responsibility" from the game's system to the player (so we can only blame our own greed... hehe).

    It'd also allow the community to provide more reliable feedback towards both scaling and specific mods and/or maps.

    You've got to exploit this arcadey feeling, devs.

  • lielsliels Member
    edited November 26


    I don't really like playing with other people either (thus the multiple gates thing), because t7 is the tier that proves whether a team truly works or not, because the health modifiers stack so much it can get absurd amounts of hits to kill a single Giant.


    Nevermind that the recent stunning accumulator nerf specifically makes this *much* more difficult for those of us, like me, that can get to T7 or 9 in pickup teams but are really struggling. That nerf was a solution in search of a problem from everything I can see, and has made the game much less enjoyable.
  • ShadeDev said:
    ... the modifiers simply do not offer enough challenge.
    Not all modifiers are equal and some are more difficult depending upon the map.  But I have to disagree with this statement. When you reach T8 or so, most keys have enough modifiers on them that certain combinations of modifiers become challenging enough. 

    My friends and I managed to complete a Riflt Lord key at tier 9 and was an insanely sweaty experience.  In my experience, there is a noticeable jump in difficulty from tier 7 onwards.  Tier 8 is difficult but still possible if you don't get an impossible set of modifiers/map.  Tier 9 is virtually impossible barring some special circumstances.  If each tier is going to continue adding modifiers, I really think you can safely cap the health, speed and control resistance of minions at the current tier 8 level.  $.02

    Shadedev, if it's possible to share, I'm guessing you guys have statistics on these things... what is the success rate on Rift Lord keys by tier?  I'm guessing it's 90-100% through tier 6 and starts dropping sharply after that...

  • ShadeDevShadeDev Member, Robot Entertainment, Early Access, Apprentice Founder, Featured Developer
    That's correct.  Tier 7 peaks at the highest loss rate, although only slightly above tier 6 and 8.

    Tiers 11 and 12 have about 3% success rate, which is about what we want.  Obviously, level 100 players have a higher success rate.

    Keep in mind, Chaos Trials are supposed to scale to the point in which a challenge can ALWAYS exist.  We don't want people to be able to outlevel the challenge of Chaos Trials.  If you prefer easier trials, we offer that option via lower challenge level keys.
    Doug Houserman
    Robot Entertainment | Lead Balance Designer
  • ShadeDev said:
    Keep in mind, Chaos Trials are supposed to scale to the point in which a challenge can ALWAYS exist.  We don't want people to be able to outlevel the challenge of Chaos Trials.  If you prefer easier trials, we offer that option via lower challenge level keys.
    Would be nice if there was some way to "cash in" keys that the player feels have become too hard.  It can be a heartbreaking experience to grind through the keys, loss after inevitable loss, just to get rid of them.  I tend to get in a foul mood after even a single loss.

    I'm not sure what exactly would be an appropriate "reward" for relinquishing a key, but here's some ideas:
    - The amount of skulls one would get from a chaos chest of that tier, but no cards
    - A chaos chest of the next lower difficulty
    - Some amount of gibs depending on the key difficulty and tier

    Proffering lower challenge level keys as the solution is a bit disingenuous because it's possible to get in a situation where the only way of obtaining such keys is with real money.  I'm sure this suits you just fine but to a player it leaves a bad taste in the mouth.
Sign In or Register to comment.