If you want to be high rank in sabotage and get there fast, you may feel the need to play dirty

SorohendiSorohendi Member
edited November 18 in General Discussion
Because I know others are doing this. I felt like I had to make this post just to even out the playing field in sabotage. Some players go into q in a 4 player team. 2 high lvl's with someone's second account at low lvl to make the game easier for the high lvl players that do the damage and a low damage hero with good abilities as the low lvl(sometimes just 3 high lvl). And then the 4th player that is not in the party but queues up at the same time to be the saboteur on the other side. Apparently there is nothing that can be done about it and some players abuse this. So with that in mind I only find it fair and helps level the playing field to make this post so that players can be aware of this fact. Surely this will get more doing it, but as things are a few narrow minded groups are doing this. And allowing them to be the only cheaters is just not fair. I'm not saying every diamond player does this, I know a few who are diamond and don't. Some diamond players are just good at the game and some .. well I won't be going where KickedBynoobs has gone before. I'm not saying that the cheaters do this all the time, because well ..... that wouldn't make them very good cheaters now would it. I for one will not go solo in q anymore to see the obvious saboteur on my team half the time, when I rarely see them in any other mode.
Post edited by Sorohendi on
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Comments

  • SorohendiSorohendi Member
    edited November 18
    Just to make things crystal clear. I am not suggesting that players "cheat" by using a 4th. I'm suggesting players to team up in 3 player party's to avoid getting the saboteur on their side. Being a high ranking player by cheating will never leave you with a sense of being one of the best.

    And if Robot ent. wants to monitor games. I am willing to monitor games an hour or two a week as a volunteer if that helps. Maybe there are others willing to do the same.
  • sashimiaksashimiak Member, Moderator, Robot Entertainment
    Hey there. This is quite alarming news and we would like to investigate further. If you could send a ticket our way with any details you remember about matches where you suspect this happened (time of the match, players on either team, etc.) that would be of great help. Regardless, I apologize you had these exerpiences and thank you for taking the time to post here and explain your suspicions.
    German Community Manager
  • TimeMasterTimeMaster Member, Early Access
    Just wanted to give my two cents on this since I experienced and reported such things several times at the early days of Sabotage.

    I had lengthy discussions and exchanges with support about this very same topic. It was a bit different since there were more ways of cheating back then, but some are still the same.

    I reported several players/teams which were cheating by:
    • Exploiting the auto-balance depending on party size, teams would queue as 3 with 2 high accounts and a very low level making minions level (they are the average of the players) pretty low and then proceed to disconnect their third player (which a disconnected player could still receive the random spells, not sure if this last bit has been fixed).

    • Abusing power generators by luring minions on them for several minutes, with the help of physics too, in order to gain a substantial coin advantage. This was partly fixed with the changes on the trap but it's still possible to do to some extent.
    • Teaming up with very low rank players to rank up faster, just like posted on the original post.

    • Leaving lobbies or matches before start, or just giving up on first wave. Thankfully the leaving with no rank penalty was fixed.

    The use of a 4th player as saboteur of the other team seems to be a new thing, I probably didn't experience it since I mostly played in a team of 3 back then.

    Anyhow, even reporting with solid proof and giving the full details of the matchs, support was for the most part unable to take any action against the cheaters. Because it seems like none of the above (except the trolling one on the other team) is against any rule or can be punished. It was underwhelming.

    However, luckily for everyone, this kind of players tend to get bored of the game pretty fast, just like it has been proven time after time.

    Having this threads talking about this things:

    https://forums.orcsmustdie.com/discussion/13318/sabotage-matchmaking
    https://forums.orcsmustdie.com/discussion/13956/sabotage-leavers
  • sashimiaksashimiak Member, Moderator, Robot Entertainment
    Thank you for the additional input and the links TimeMaster. I hadn't heard about this since I am not directly involved with tickets but I will talk to support and see if we can come up with something. 
    German Community Manager
  • SorohendiSorohendi Member
    edited November 19
    @sashimiak check my last ticket report. I reported a player that is still doing the same. I f4 now when I see him in my random team. So I wont be cheated on again. It's the only thing I see possible in the situation. I suggested that player to be monitored to see if his opponents are usually or always the same, in my experience they are. It could shed a light if there are some players abusing sabotage.
  • SorohendiSorohendi Member
    edited November 20
    I think if there would be an option to chose whether I go into 1v1, 2v2 or 3v3 game. It would cancel some of the cheating possibilities. And could also even out the playing field. Why would a lvl 100 go into a 3v3 game with teammates that have only red traps?
  • Sorohendi said:
     Why would a lvl 100 go into a 3v3 game with teammates that have only red traps?
    I do this all the time just for fun. Heck I've teamed up with people who have Teir 1 traps, because I think its bad form to quit the game lobby just because I don't like who I have been randomly matched with. I don't play to be the best, just to have a good time. I think its fun to teach new people so I have several friends that are only lvl 50 ish that I often play sabotage with. I don't agree with @TimeMaster that this is "cheating" I'm theoretically just as likely to win or lose with a low lvl player, so the fact that I sometimes win with low lvl team mates means the rank I earn is definitely earned.


    I reported several players/teams which were cheating by:
    • Teaming up with very low rank players to rank up faster, just like posted on the original post.

    I also do random matchmaker just cause I like meeting new people. I really don't feel I should be reported indiscriminately for doing this under the assumption that I am gaming the system by being nice to new players.
    TimeMaster said:
    • Abusing power generators by luring minions on them for several minutes, with the help of physics too, in order to gain a substantial coin advantage. This was partly fixed with the changes on the trap but it's still possible to do to some extent.
    This one really surprises me. How is farming coin cheating? I've seen many posts in the forum talking about the best heros to farm power generators with - Lin's shift, Hogarth's tankyness, Ivy's root and heal. The power gen is a trap and it only gives a certain amount of coin per "charge" and only charges once per wave. If one team can do it, all teams can be doing it at the same time, therefore this isn't a "cheat," even if it is a strategy that some players don't know of.

    That said, sometimes people are cheating (the horrible forum post where someone put flip traps over the bottom left barricades in banquet hall) or just showing bad form (giving up after losing some rift points and refusing to do anything for the rest of the game).
  • RagnarosorakRagnarosorak Member
    edited November 23
    1. There are communities like NuNs that train their members in sabo, thats why sometimes they have lower lvl players in party
    2. The power generator  is not an exploit nor a bug nor a abuse, minions aggro, ivy knocks back, gens roll, its just how the game work, its not a secret or anything.
    3.what kind of maniac would think that anyone is wasting his time planting saboteurs in other players parties...

    Allow me to point out the facts about this claim of yours because enough is enough:

    Sorohendi I know you referred to players in my guild as cheating because our friend was in your party in a particular sabotage game on maximum security the other day. He came on voice and told us he was in your team and apologised but proceeded to do his best to win. In fact we only won in sudden death because I used an empty rift scroll and there was literally a second in it. We rerouted the minions around the north guardian to buy time because we kept dying. You are always throwing accusations around but the truth is we are just an active guild and we queue around one another when we can but when the queue is dead we play against each other. Just because you come across us in matchmaking does not make us cheats. He told us you threw accusations at him throughout the game, in fact this was likely the one thing that prevented you from winning.

    You were banned from our discord server for trolling and slinging abuse at people, making accusations one after another which we specifically and categorically disproved in each case. Something Sashimiak can see if he wishes because it is still in our general chat log and you have been trying to target us unfairly ever since. If anyone in my guild is using a low level account to cheat I will promptly ban them from discord and ask mancerader to remove them from the guild but to my knowledge this is not the case at all and I play with everyone in my guild daily.

    Your grudge against us is personal and nothing to do with the topics you have raised and bringing it into the game forum is just a vindictive and petty attack on our dignity. We do not think rank dictates a good player we play for the kicks. I myself am only platinum V and almost quit because I was embarrassed when multiple bugs in the game cost me a lot of rank, I wanted only a modest rank so I dont look like inexperienced on my streams. Sure I encounter cheats sometimes but I generally beat them anyway and move on and I have since grinded my rank back FAIRLY like everyone else in my guild does when this happens.

    Please stop trying to target us with this slander and leave us alone to enjoy the game that we a) care about passionately and b) are trying to help promote and improve though teamwork and sharing of advice and streaming and nice conduct.

    If you think individual players are cheats feel free to write a ticket but using power generators to farm xp for a few seconds or even up to a minute at the end of a wave is not cheating or exploiting, the way professional sabotage games work is to have the trap cap by sudden death when you are facing a strong opponent. Both teams must have level 10 heroes and enough funds to afford this, and the power generator is one of only 2 traps that allows 2 slots for xp siphons. if we were sitting there for minutes on end to farm coin on every map and not just doing it for a few seconds a wave on a few maps where it is strictly necessary I would understand but as you can clearly see from my regular streams this is not the case AT ALL. 

    The trap is designed to farm coin and it farms coin for a limited amount of time. By spending money on it you actually have less funds in the early game to place damaging traps and it often costs people games if they do not use the generator carefully. I have nothing more to say on this issue because your complaints of "cheating" do not affect me directly and my game logs and streams will proove that but I hope you can get over this vendetta and leave us alone, I know you are referring to my friends because of statements you have made in game repeatedly. 

    You do not have to like people who play the game but you have no right to target them like this either. You should play your game and let us play ours, if individuals are cheating then submit a ticket. I honestly considered you a good friend in this game for a long time but I worry about how you come to think and feel this way, we have begun for a while to act badly towards you because of all the dirt you sling at us, it is regrettable to say the least. I just feel the official game channels are not the place for this kind of thing and whilst you did not mention anyone specifically i have knowledge of what you are referring to from what you have said to people in game and in each case the accusations have been both unfounded and unreasonable, I hope you get past this, I welcome Robot to check all our game logs for details of the things Sorohendi claims and I will even happily provide times and dates that these supposed games took place because our discord logs are very thorough. I will not be commenting here again and I am sorry to anyone who is reading this for the drama myself and my guild have been dragged in to.

    **edited for content
    Post edited by Czassity on
  • TimeMaster said:
    • Abusing power generators by luring minions on them for several minutes, with the help of physics too, in order to gain a substantial coin advantage. This was partly fixed with the changes on the trap but it's still possible to do to some extent.

    From what I've seen, the team will place nothing but power generators on walls (no dmg traps at all), make enemies walk along generators, then use the coin earned from generators and kills to put even more generators to extend the farming area/time. Sometimes they take the one or two enemies left and make them walk back and forth (or root them in place next to the gens, which works just as well). So yes, it can go for several minutes at a time.
  • damfino said:
    From what I've seen, the team will place nothing but power generators on walls (no dmg traps at all), make enemies walk along generators, then use the coin earned from generators and kills to put even more generators to extend the farming area/time. Sometimes they take the one or two enemies left and make them walk back and forth (or root them in place next to the gens, which works just as well). So yes, it can go for several minutes at a time.
    I understand the strategies some players use is different than your preference, but as @Ragnarosorak explained
    The trap is designed to farm coin and it farms coin for a limited amount of time. By spending money on it you actually have less funds in the early game to place damaging traps and it often costs people games if they do not use the generator carefully. 
    (My emphasis added) I've totally lost games because I thought I could hold them at the power gens long enough to get money for damage traps, and I've lost games because I didn't have enough coin to get traps up (especially in 1v1 with multiple lanes).
  • TimeMasterTimeMaster Member, Early Access
    @ElaMonster

    I wasn't talking about randomly formed parties, I thought it was obvious. I'm talking about different scenarios where players teamed up specifically with (very) low ranked players with the only purpose of tricking the system, aka ranking up faster. 

    Secondary accounts (smurfs) deliberately ranked low and then teamed up with high rank players, literally asking in global chat and other medias for exclusively bronze players to add as their third in a team, having friends derank on purpose to then team with them and rank faster, etc. Those are deliberate cheating, and as I stated on the older threads, I think that it only ruins the experience for the other players, since you are just tricking the matchmaking making it work even worse and creating even unfairer matches, just for the sake of ranking faster.

    I was mostly talking about people who has been sitting in Diamond rank forever and they achieved it by the above means. I haven't played much sabotage in a while, so I have no idea if there are new methods now. Atleast I can say that I ranked without ever using any kind of deliberate exploit or cheat of the ranking system.

    @Ragnarosorak

    To be totally honest, I don't think the power gen farming is a strategy. You guys can think it's fair, that's questionable, but I really think it's a dishonest advantage. It's clear that the game design and the trap design aren't around holding a minion for several minutes with physics to make several thousands more coins than your adversary.

    It's not something shocking or surprising, people wanting to gain advantage by any means. Dishonest or not, it's a pretty lame tactic. making deliberately your opponents wait for some minutes at the end of the round while you are exploiting an undesired behaviour of the game mechanic isn't cool.

    This is more of a discussion of the people that thinks "There is a bug, let's just exploit it for our own sake no matter how many people we ruin the experience for, so devs eventually fix it" vs "There is a bug, let's not use it in order to not ruin the experience for the other players and hope that devs eventually fix it"

    Both sides might want in the end the same, the problem fixed, but exploiting isn't still not cool or helpful to anyone, neither the other players, the community, or the game itself.


    And yes, I know the meaning of the word cheating, I looked it up several times. I'm not trying to be a smartass here, I wasn't even pointing particularly anyone, most of what I pointed is a copy-paste from times where I didn't even know most of you or your guild. The power gen thing has been abused ever since sabotage came out, there was even changes on the trap to reduce that behaciour, hence why I strongly believe that it is a dishonest practice.
  • TimeMasterTimeMaster Member, Early Access
    damfino said:
    From what I've seen, the team will place nothing but power generators on walls (no dmg traps at all), make enemies walk along generators, then use the coin earned from generators and kills to put even more generators to extend the farming area/time. Sometimes they take the one or two enemies left and make them walk back and forth (or root them in place next to the gens, which works just as well). So yes, it can go for several minutes at a time.
    I understand the strategies some players use is different than your preference, but as @Ragnarosorak explained
    The trap is designed to farm coin and it farms coin for a limited amount of time. By spending money on it you actually have less funds in the early game to place damaging traps and it often costs people games if they do not use the generator carefully. 
    (My emphasis added) I've totally lost games because I thought I could hold them at the power gens long enough to get money for damage traps, and I've lost games because I didn't have enough coin to get traps up (especially in 1v1 with multiple lanes).
    Again, obviously we are not talking about simply placing power generators. I'm talking about using the coins collected during the wave and use them at the end of the very same wave to place generators while holding one or a few minions alive, and do that again and again with the coin generated. Which is entirely possible and not that hard to do.
  • I understand the strategies some players use is different than your preference, but as @Ragnarosorak explained
    The trap is designed to farm coin and it farms coin for a limited amount of time. By spending money on it you actually have less funds in the early game to place damaging traps and it often costs people games if they do not use the generator carefully. 
    Yeah, one time I called him out on it and he tried to explain he was "playing the game as intended", and that I should "hate the game, not the player (who found an exploit)." Which prompted me to suggest that generators are either disabled entirely on sabotage or at least limited in some form: http://forums.orcsmustdie.com/discussion/14561/disable-power-generator-in-sabotage#latest


  • @TimeMaster I suppose it depends on how you define power gen farming. Sure, farming for "several minutes" would be bad form, but I'm not sure who is doing that because I haven't personally run into it. Typically I've seen farming for max 1 minute at the very most, or often, none at all other than dropping as many power gens as possible as the minions run to the rift. I guess I'd imagine @Sorohendi is accusing specific people of cheating to gain rank, but rank is meaningless, and if it is a specific person, write a ticket. We need to focus more on promoting the community instead of making the community a toxic environment. Forums all about disliking each other's play style is divisive and unhelpful.
  • SorohendiSorohendi Member
    edited November 22
    Well, since Ragnarosorak is throwing wild accusations my way, then I think it's best to reply. For one thing, I mentioned nothing to Volfrenz in the mentioned sabotage game except tactics about the ongoing game. And if you chose to take my accusations to be pointed towards the nuns, then that's your business. As far as the "trolling" you mentioned on your channel, TimeMaster informed me that the entire thing had been erased. I merely called Mancerader a hypocrite for banning Mokstar for lashing out, since he himself lashed out at me and TimeMaster on the same channel a few day's earlier. Other posts I made were simply answers to your words. The grudge you speak of is not something I was aware of and I can assure you that I do not carry grudges, I will however make posts like this one to point out possible cheats in hope that Robot ent. can find a way to prevent that. I simply do not like people cheating, nor do I like the possibility of it. The thing about the power gens is something that I do not even mention in my post. I do however find the power gen thing to be terrible boring to play against and do agree on other posts made about it made by others, just to air my opinion on that. As for slandering you, I simply do not understand what you mean by that. I rather feel your post to be slandering against me, to be honest. And stating that I have repeatedly stated in game that you are cheaters is simply wrong. I do not recall mentioning any such thing to anyone in-game at all, I have warned people about one player that I believe to be a saboteur, but he's not in nuns guild. I have also mentioned to other players that I do not go into 3pl random sabotage games anymore, because I do not want to face a 3pl nuns team all high lvl players while my teammates are most likely going to be low lvl players and thus assuring me a loss, this happened about 50% of the time I went into random sabotage games. As I stated earlier, I do not hold any grudge against you. And using words like "paranoia" and "hate" is nothing but being disrespectful towards me, as is you entire speech you have written down. You write that this will be your last post and I do hope you will not write another slander post like this. And if anyone want's to see why I got banned from your channel then the screen-shots are posted in CoCa off-topic channel on discord. I have hardly played omd!u for the past two weeks and I do not think I'll be playing a lot of it in the future. And on a final note, I do hope you will conduct your guild-master business more like my dear ex-guild master TimeMaster. Throughout the last year I've been at CoCa and many players have accused the guild players to use scripts or other methods of cheating and not once has TimeMaster seen neither fit nor proper to answer or lash out to any of those. Neither real accusations or fictional.

    And as a side note. If you are so adamant on getting rid of anyone in you guild that is cheating, then perhaps you should have asked me if I thought any cheaters were in your guild and done some investigations before slandering me here.
  • RagnarosorakRagnarosorak Member
    edited November 22
    I have a dozen or so of these between in game and discord general chat but I dont want to get into anything with you. Nuff said.

    Post edited by Ragnarosorak on
  • SorohendiSorohendi Member
    edited November 23
    It's no lie that I wrote a report about a game that I thought to be cheating involved. I mentioned that in an early post. Nothing new here. I also confronted one of the guys on the other team about it. But if you want to start exchanging screens 

    "He told us you threw accusations at him throughout the game, in fact this was likely the one thing that prevented you from winning."
    Blatant and not true.


    I had an incident in one of my games where a player went to defend cades. Cades in mention are the ones next to the rift in banquet hall. The 3 first bombers were coming and I knew that they would not be enough to destroy my t7, double struts + phd barricades. But it happend. I saw on the minimap that this unmentioned player was standing on top of the barricades and I even used my teleport ring to go back to the rift. Where I saw him standing on top of the rubble from the barricade. To me that was something beyond stupid playing. So I confronted one of the players on the other side about it. Admittedly confronting one player in particulate was a mistake, as I can not be sure if all of my opponents, if any were involved in the suspected foul play. I have, by the way, apologized to that player for that accusation as it was done in haste and right after the aforementioned game and my temper was flaring at that point.

    But since I had played with the suspected saboteur, that was on my team, before and him doing dumb things to cost me games and also disconnecting in load screen leaving me with less starter coin in a 1vs2 game. I suspected nothing but foul play. I wrote a ticket about it and then a week later I decided to write what people can see here on top after reading a few sabotage threads here on forum. I did nothing to implement you or your guild in my posts. I simply wanted to start the discussion on weather or not a 4th player cheating was going on in the game, because it is possible and I wanted Robot ent to look into if there was a solution that would eliminate that being possible. But for some reason you take that as a personal attack on you and your guild. I never mentioned you, I never mentioned your guild and what ever has transpired between me and you and your guild is and was in the past on my behalf. So please stop slandering me and trying to start an argument on open forums. I am only trying to help Robot ent. making omd!u better. Anyone who has played with me knows that I play fair and always have. I've helped many new players in the game and I have written bug posts to Robot and on the rare occasion that I find players trying to abuse the game I have informed Robot ent. about it. I am simply trying to help make the game that I love, better. So would you please end this bickering and stay true to your final words in your original post.
    Post edited by Sorohendi on
  • SorohendiSorohendi Member
    edited November 23
    https://i.imgur.com/jfT2eBr.png?1

    Since we are sharing pictures. Says nothing about me "Throwing accusations" 
    Post edited by Sorohendi on
  • SorohendiSorohendi Member
    edited November 23
    We also spoke on what had happened and he understood why I got upset. I'm glad that the two of us could duke it out. It's a shame that we could not do the same @Ragnarosorak
    Post edited by Sorohendi on
  • I kind of have a solution to fix this power generator thing.
    It could be done, that the first side to finish a level gets a special advantage. Possible options:

    1. The next wave timer starts as soon as the first team clears their map
    2. The first team to clear gets a gold/s buff until the other team finishes
    3. An OP assassin mercenary could spawn if one team takes significantly longer to clear, and does not go away until their map is cleared.
    4. Minions lose aggro after a short timer once the other team has cleared
    5. Coin generators are disabled after the other team has won (short timer)
    6. Do nothing, it's lame but legal so who cares
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