If you want to be high rank in sabotage and get there fast, you may feel the need to play dirty

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Comments

  • I have to agree to damfino, if I've dropped over 50 spots from losing with a couple of players who had mostly red traps against a team of players I know are all lvl 100 and one of them was diamond rank. Then I won the same players again with a slightly better players (atleast that's what they're traps told me) and I went up 8 spots. Being punished by a loss of rank because you had noobs on your side is way to harsh for anyone slightly competitive to even bother playing sabotage.  I think when they write that you'll be ranked by "yours truly Maximilian" they mean it.

    I complained about a low lvl player who always is in sabotage just to be a saboteur, in my opinion, after a few encounters. They say they "monitored" him and said they found nothing irregular about him. But still, I never see him in any other game mode except sabotage. And anyone who stands on top of barricades while playing Oziel can't be doing that because of ignorance, not in my book. People usually learn from mistakes, especially after they destroy a certain amount of barricades. I think it's sad that I get a letter from them telling me that they have monitored a player. I have it from a reliable source that Robot ent. don't have the resources to monitor players..... So sad. I could go on a personal vendetta and record all my gaming sessions, but I'm not that guy. (I rather just bitch about it on forums)   :p
    I'm a paying customer and if I have a legit complain, I will air it out.

    I used to play random sabo a couple of hours a day or more. Now I don't play it alot anymore and when I do I usually just press f4 when I get low ranks on my side and go play another game instead. If Robot wants players to keep playing the game after everything else is done, then there has to be a more fair vs mode available. Or atleast make sabotage better then it is. 

    I realize that monitoring players may not be possible. But making the matchup and ranking system better is quite possible. Maybe the fact that the game activity is peaking with 350 players should be a concern for them though.
  • Once you make it to platinum or diamond there's actually little chance you'll play with or against other platinum or diamonds, since the bulk of the player base is on gold and lower, unless a pre-made team is already there waiting. Or you team up with people you know, which isn't always possible.

    When playing solo or even with a team, I've had runs where I/we played up to five games in a row against various other enemies and not move up a single spot, I guess because enemies are probably silver or bronze. But if you were to lose against them just one of those five games... yikes
  • damfino said:

    When playing solo or even with a team, I've had runs where I/we played up to five games in a row against various other enemies and not move up a single spot, I guess because enemies are probably silver or bronze. But if you were to lose against them just one of those five games... yikes
    The fact that you lose a lot if you lose against low level player is actually right IMO. I mean you've got to prove you're the best with what you got, that's the game...If a lower tier/ lower level player wins in a fight against a higher tier/level than it's right for him to jump a lot of spots and also for the loser to drop a lot. Our ELO should be clearer tho, and unbalanced matchmaking isn't supposed to happen.

    My suggestion would be to matchmake players only among a variation of  2/3 tiers and not  based on the time you've waited, i'd rather have the game telling me: SORRY we can't find a match for you ATM.

    i'll do something else or play against my clan mates and train, rather than create more frustration by going against a three random team with a couple lvl 30 with a few blue traps and a level 70 who will just get pissed, this is only gonna alienate all of them from this mode or even the game.

    Hope Devs are reading this maybe they we can engage and understand why what we're saying isn't doable or maybe it is...
  • I don't really "lose a lot", but the ranking works in such a way that if I get thrown into a 3v3 game with low levels on both sides and I lose because my team didn't know to run away from cades when bomb spell hit, I still get dropped anywhere between 10 and 30 spots on the rank. If I consistently lost games because I'm an unskilled player I don't think I'd be hovering between platinum 1 and 2. I've been on diamond 1 twice before, so I think I'm at least a competent player, and I can name players who always kick my orc fair and square on 1v1s, so I know I have work to do. But the way sabotage ranking operates makes it clear with some people who reached diamond just stopped playing it altogether
  • damfino said:
     I've been on diamond 1 twice before, so I think I'm at least a competent player, and I can name players who always kick my orc fair and square on 1v1s, so I know I have work to do. But the way sabotage ranking operates makes it clear with some people who reached diamond just stopped playing it altogether
    Do you play on PC or PS4? 

    Because the problem with diamond tier 1 on PS4 is that many exploited a glitch that allowed you to quit before losing without suffering any repercussion.

    I was also expecting the ranking board to get cleared after latest update but it hasn't...yet?
  • Do you play on PC or PS4? 

    Because the problem with diamond tier 1 on PS4 is that many exploited a glitch that allowed you to quit before losing without suffering any repercussion.

    I was also expecting the ranking board to get cleared after latest update but it hasn't...yet?
    We are PC people and our leaderboard has the same issues, but reset is today! :D Hope you guys get a reset too if your high ranks have the same issue.
  • damfino said:
    Better yet, get rid of ranks entirely. Make it so everyone goes back to simply playing for fun and not having to cheat or suffer for what's in the end just a badge made of pixels. How many players reach diamond, then stop playing?

    damfino said:
    ... But the way sabotage ranking operates makes it clear with some people who reached diamond just stopped playing it altogether

    No, do not get rid of ranks.  The game would surely die much faster.  The issue with the leaderboard (at least pre-update, remains to be seen how it works now) is twofold.  First, as mentioned above, lots of people were exploiting the "quit if you are losing" mechanic to prevent rank loss.  They achieved high rank by "never losing" and can't risk playing the game now that their crutch is gone.

    Second, queue times for playing Sabotage get fairly ridiculous when you achieve higher ranks. Some of my PS4 Sabotage friends have played with the guys who are at the very top of the PS4 leaderboard.  As a 3 stack of diamond players, they waited in queue for over 40 minutes.  Waiting 20+ minutes to play for roughly 1 minute isn't very rewarding use of leisure time, so yeah, I don't blame folks for moving on to other games when queue times are so unreasonable.

    However, I proposed a solution of sorts to the leaderboard issue.  If you like the suggestion, please consider agreeing or voting up the post:

    https://forums.orcsmustdie.com/discussion/comment/61003/#Comment_61003

  • edited December 6
    When you play the game of sabo, you either powergen or lose.

    While powegens in their current state are wonderful (being nerfed to death tomorrow in the patch), they are not a guarantee win/loss if you do or don't bring them. In 1v1 I rarely spend the trap slot on a power gen and while I don't enjoy 1v1 I dont win more if I bring them. Actually, thinking about it, I might lose more the times I bring them. I just don't then have the slots for all the other traps I need for a particular map.
    When playing 1v1 matches diamond vs diamond, you will lose if you don't bring powergens and the enemy does *on most maps (barring circumstances like the person disconnecting). Maybe the new form of powergen will be different, I haven't had a chance to test it.
    damfino said:
    Playing against low levels feels bad. A lot of times I don't even bother sending minions or spells. Or even pick powerful spells only so they can maybe clone it from me and get a little help. Then there's the flipside, playing with low levels against organized or high rank teams. Most you can do is carry them into sudden death where they get obliterated.

    The ranking is what bothers me the most since it is realistically the only "reward" sabotage offers. I don't see why I can win 1v1 battle against a diamond 3 and move up only four spots between platinum 1, but later the same day lose against another diamond 3 on a 1v1 and drop 8 spots, back to plat II, instead.

    But if you're with low rank teammates the punishment for losing is far harsher. I've dropped up to 38 spots after a single game, either because my teammate was new to the map or just not skilled enough to defend correctly. Yet I read here on this thread that playing with low levels is "low risk". Right. It is fun, and I'll do it, but come on. Fix the rank system, allow to play games with no effect on rank, or at least explain to me exactly what it takes into consideration.
    The punishment for losing a match is obscene and takes away a lot of the fun of playing sabotage.  During semester my internet connection can cause brief lag spikes.  For other games I play like League, this isn't a problem because a brief spike won't make me lose the game and even if I do lose I only lose ~1 wins worth of rank.  Whereas for sabotage if I have a brief lag spike and a kobold gets by or a bomb goes off causing me to lose, then I lose ~15 wins worth of rank.  This limits the times I'm willing to play sabotage, despite me enjoying it more than League.

    I think the matchmaker does the best with what it's given (it's at least far better than it was when I first started playing), but there's a lack of options for it to work with.  I believe the problem is lack of higher ranks playing. I have a feeling most diamond players are far more worried about getting matched up against a silver player than they are against a diamond player due to the amount of rank lost.  When I lose against other high rank players I lose an understandable amount of rank that I'm fine with, however not enough high ranking players are actively playing.  The system puts you against lower ranking players due to the lack of higher rank players, and the higher rank players aren't playing because they're afraid to be matched against a low ranking player and tanking their rank.  In League this problem is somewhat fixed by the introduction of "rank decay" for inactive players.  If you go a ~week without playing a game, then your rank drops.

    I don't think getting rid of the ranked system would help, as you said the rank is the only "reward" for playing.  I know I would play a lot less sabotage if rank didn't exist, and less players playing is bad for queue times.

    Post edited by JusticeMcPayne on
  • Raptor JesusRaptor Jesus Member
    edited December 7
    I have to applaud you for sticking with it for so long damfino, I gave up months ago because of the sabotage matchmaking. This game HAD potential but the devs squandered it.

    298 playing 33 min ago
    647 24-hour peak

  • lielsliels Member
    This is how I learned to stop worrying and learn to love the inchoate ranking system. I can go toe to toe, 1-1 with players vastly higher ranked than I am. I also mess up and lose when I "shouldn't". *shrug*. What we should collectively hope for with a good match system is fair matches, where there is a 50/50 chance that your team will lose, on average, and when you win or lose you'll see that it was dumb luck or a good play or a climb in skill. In other words, if you aren't losing ~1/2 your matches, you're missing out.
  • lielsliels Member
    Also, there seems to be a matchmaker and/or community problem with Sabotage now ... I've been waiting for > 20 min with an "average" of 8:00 when I started (up from ~4:00 on a normal day) .... (not that 4 can't mean > 20 ... what the heck is the statistical distribution if actual is often *many* sigmas over 'average'). [Yes, I need to know the distribution to know the sigmas ... that's my point ...]
  • liels said:
    Also, there seems to be a matchmaker and/or community problem with Sabotage now ... I've been waiting for > 20 min with an "average" of 8:00 when I started (up from ~4:00 on a normal day) .... (not that 4 can't mean > 20 ... what the heck is the statistical distribution if actual is often *many* sigmas over 'average'). [Yes, I need to know the distribution to know the sigmas ... that's my point ...]
    It seems that average really means the time it makes you wait before it forces a match and balances by adjusting lvl of minions spawned.
  • I think the matchmaker problems are epiphenomenal to the larger issue of the crazy disparity between winning and losing. People don't like getting matched with players who still have red or even grey traps, as it increases chances of losing. Of course, "win some, lose some" is at the heart of every game and it's inevitable, but losing to a low rank team can drop you over 30 spots if you're platinum rank. This causes many people to flat-out skip on games if they don't get a 1v1 or a 2v2, lest they get a bad player who'll ruin their progress. And believe me, you can have a week or two of progress undone over a single loss.

    Would these players who skip games, causing delays for everyone else to find a game, be more willing to engage and play regardless of who they get matched with if instead of dropping 30 spots they knew they could earn their rank back in maybe 3-5 other wins? Well, we'd have to ask them :p
  • AxonyAxony Member
    the issue is always the same: once you reach diamond you can only loose rank.
    There is no Season system and no ranked rewards so there is no point in winning or loosing.
  • Guild mates and I queued up for sabotage last night as a 3 stack.  We waited... and waited... and waited... The "Avg. Time" is such a troll.  I should have taken a screen shot.  I kid you not... avg time = 3 minutes.  Current time = 31 minutes.  We quit waiting.  Not worth it to wait so long for a game.  This is a real problem.
  • Jackbenz1990Jackbenz1990 Member
    edited December 7
    I'm currently top of the leaderboard in sabotage on PS4 and certainly not because i'm the best player, simply because i was given back my old rank by playing 5 matches... now? this cleanslate leadrboard thing was supposed to be the occasion to re-climb the ladder and put all the players at the same level in order for them to advance and fight and maybe, even solve the waiting issue for some time, instead i have to wait more than thirty minutes for one match that lasts less than 3...Not really enjoying the way this was handled.
  • Leshii79Leshii79 Member
    edited December 8
    damfino сказал:
    Я думаю, что проблемы сваха являются эпифеноменальными для более крупной проблемы безумного несоответствия между победой и потерей. Людям не нравится встречаться с игроками, у которых все еще есть красные или даже серые ловушки, так как это увеличивает шансы на проигрыш. Конечно, «победить, проиграть» - это сердце каждой игры, и это неизбежно, но проигрыш более чем на 30 очков, если вы платиновый ранг. Это заставляет многих людей отказаться от игр, если они не получат 1v1 или 2v2, чтобы они не получили плохого игрока, который испортит их прогресс. И поверьте мне, у вас может быть неделя или два прогресса, отмененных за одну потерю.

    Будут ли те те, кто пропускает игры, вы можете забрать всех желающих, чтобы найти игру, если вы захотите, свой ранг, возможно, на 3-5 другие победы? Ну, мы должны спросить их: p
    Мне интересно, о чем думает автобаланс, когда дает в союзниках игрок с серыми ловушками (даже не с красными) против команды Нансов в полном составе. У них три игрока 100 уровня со связью и сыгранные, не спорят где стоять та или иная ловушка. У нас новичок, с серыми ловушками, который вообще ничего не знает, но уверен, что чем больше он поставит серых шипов - тем лучше для победы. Так вот вопрос - о чем думает автобаланс? Он думает они пьяные, они будут играть с закрытыми глазами или будут играть каждую волну по очереди? О чем он думает если допускает, что мы можем выиграть? 
  • the reality is... there are so few people that play this dead gametype it's just going completely unchecked at this point.
  • blixerGT said:
    the reality is... there are so few people that play this dead gametype it's just going completely unchecked at this point.
    That's actually not true dear. The devs are hitting (IMO) harder than necessary in some cases by, for example, over-nerfing the power generators. And they have (a good thing) banned disrespectful and cheating players, but sometimes I wonder if they let it go on for longer than necessary before taking action. So I hear your frustration.
  • blixerGT said:
    the reality is... there are so few people that play this dead gametype it's just going completely unchecked at this point.
    That's actually not true dear. The devs are hitting (IMO) harder than necessary in some cases by, for example, over-nerfing the power generators. And they have (a good thing) banned disrespectful and cheating players, but sometimes I wonder if they let it go on for longer than necessary before taking action. So I hear your frustration.
    Actually it is true that few people play this game anymore. The power gen nerf is only for sabotage, and does little to fix that game mode. It could stand some more major improvements when it comes to ranking and matchmaking. And banning disrespectful players and cheaters is nothing new. They could be more vigilant in doing so. I played a couple of sabotage two days ago and saw not much change, other then the power gens. Also saw the top list had gold players on it. So not alot of old timers are coming back, sadly.
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