Brass Feedback

Here's some Brass Feedback since I have mixed feelings about her.

Her overall kit feels like two separate heroes:

Blunderbuss and cannonball is high physical damage with skill shots, running in and out for bonus damage.
Turret, wrench and mines is support based hero, relying on managing scrap levels.

These two separate ways of playing is on one hero. So she feels like you are always forgeting about one of her moves. For me I don't use her cannon shot since I have to manage everything else. For other players I've seen another guy just using her turret as a decoy because it's free.

She also has 2 primarys. The wrench and blunderbuss they are both on a low cooldown so trying to keep a turret alive you spend your time switching between depending on how many minions are coming. Also the blunderbuss is so good that in late game wrench is pretty much useless. Early game wrench and late game blunderbuss.

The mines are her main source of damage since brass places them so quickly you can burn through your entire scrap bar against a large group of enemies. I would recommend picking 1/2 priced mines their damage is good. They also give you scrap sometimes you gain back all that you lost. They are great at getting runners as well with good planning.

Cannonball I don't really use. I suppose it works the same as deadeyes bombs. But she's got so much going on I find the blunderbuss is better.

The turret is useful at the start of a match and then leaving in a lane. It normally gets overpowered and killed then you have spend 30 seconds rebuilding it. But it is good at the end of a good trap room picking off. Which means you will leave it in the first lane while you take the second lane. Archers like standing outside it's range and destroying barricades in their way, which means it's too risky in endless and annoying in every other gamemode. Also babysitting the turret is annoying since minions are always getting in the way of the wrench.

Overall her individual moves are great but they are all on such low cooldowns so you forget one move. I would recommend making one of her moves are ultimate so you would use it in hard places.

If you have mastered how to use all her moves without it feeling clunky, reply.

Thanks for reading
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Comments

  • I have been having a lot of fun with her. Love setting down the turret right next to a guardian so the guardian takes agro lets the turret attack without need for repair. I don't find her clunky at all, just that you need to wait a moment to use cannonball if you shoot first, while the animation for cannonball can be canceled into a shot. chucking out cannon fire is great with the weaver for 50% off cdr. usually go with that one since i rarely ever have my turret standing next to me during a match for the hp regen, and never go scrap regen because i usually have a large amount sitting around anyway late game because it rarely gets used after level 3 turret is built and all it's really used for at that point is mines.

    The biggest problem for me with the character is for trinket usage. you start with no scrap so you can't use, say, fire wall bracers for the extra combo points in the beginning. i usually run firewall but have yet to choose a second go to trinket for the character. will probably go with ring of last stand, i think it's called, since end game ranged attacks go right through you at such a low hp threshold.
  • RaNdOmKiLs666RaNdOmKiLs666 Member
    edited December 7
    I agree she's kind of an odd character to play and she has way to little health, considering she uses a shotgun as her primary damage dealer, which obviously requires her to get close to enemies. A small increase of 75 - 100 to base health would likely improve durability without turning her into a tank. 

    The wrench as a weapon feels strange, perhaps it should be reworked to have massive knockback and low damage per hit, so you can knock minions back or off cliffs.

    The cannonball seems to get the job done, although i wish the 50% cooldown weaver was a 50% damage increase instead, also the 1 second stun weaver feels underpowered and would be better if it additionally slowed minions by 33% for 3s after the stun wears off.

    The turret definitely needs a range increase and should prioritize archers over all other enemies when possible. Apart from this it's an ok ability, although it seems to die very fast at times.

    The brass bombs are pretty good when spammed at choke points or as a last resort near the rift.  A short 1s delay as others have mentioned should be added to make bombs more efficient by hitting more targets. 

    The shotgun (Blunderbuss) does good damage, but the damage can can feel somewhat inconsistent at times.


    Overall i'd rate her effectiveness at B level. One things clear though, is she needs some tweaks and improvements.


    EDIT: Played with her some more and i'm starting to warm up to her skill set, but i still think she needs some changes. I've edited some of my above feedback.
    Post edited by RaNdOmKiLs666 on
  • KjubyKjuby Member
    She is awesome, 100% fun to play! Love her.
  • KjubyKjuby Member
    edited December 7
    Playing Brass, some remarks:
    1. Gears from big mobs (bosses, ogre, troll etc) appear higher than from ordinary mobs. So i have to jump to get it.
    2. I can't place turret like Torbjorn. First i have to sell turret from its previous location, which can be pretty far from current position. It is not the way it should be, i think.

  • HieroGlyphHieroGlyph Member
    edited December 7
    1) The range of the turret is too short. While it may be the same as Stinkeye's totem, his can hit 3-4 enemies at a time and can be repositioned easily. Also, the totem doesn't draw aggro so it's placement is far more forgiving. While I understand the turret is just part of her kit, it certainly isn't the focal point.

    2) Her mines need a 1-2s detonation delay when tripped. Right now half the blast is lost because the first minion in the line detonates it and there are no other minions in front. If the mine had a slight delay it would allow tar traps to group enemies and maximize its blast radius. Currently the best use for them is to place them in the middle of a pack but her health makes this risky at best.

    3) Items that require a mana cost are a mess on her, especially since she can't regenerate mana. This is where scrap starts to fall apart.

    4) Scrap is bothersome. Dobbin works so well since he generates gold which is needed for traps and now guardians and is a basic resource. Scrap is unique and instead of granting health or some other basic resource, it is only used for 2 skills. Seriously, it is only needed for mines and upgrading the turret. No wonder why it took you so long to make scrap  work, it goes against the simplicity of the entire game.
  • imo she is a bit weak at early levels... but can get really strong if you set up weavers that improves her E. And then she becomes a literal "press E to win" hero.
  • So how would I fix Brass?

    Well, I would get rid of scrap entirely and make her the first hero with upgradeable/customizable skills.

    So let's take her Brass Bombs. Instead of having them cost scrap, you give them a mana cost and simply use a cooldown to prevent spam. Nothing new so far.

    This is where things get interesting. Instead of her wrench (it's pretty bad anyway), we include a skill upgrade selector. So at the start of the game Brass starts with her basic Brass Bomb. At any point during the match she can research (spend gold) to upgrade/customize  the skill. This would allow her to add a slow, burn, extra damage to the bombs, change the detonation size by making it smaller but stronger, adding a delay so more enemies walk over it, or adding remote detonation, etc. The idea is to give her a choice of how to upgrade/customize the skill similar to a weaver but she has to pay gold to do it.

    3 upgrade paths of 3 options each should be enough. So if you pick 1C, then you cannot select 1A or 1B. Each time you select an upgrade the gold cost for the next upgrade increases. So if you pay 2,000 gold for 1C, then 2A/B/C will cost 4,000 gold and finally 3A/B/C will cost 6,000 gold (these values are just examples). Also, you can select any upgrade order you want so you could go 1-2-3, or go 2-3-1, or just 3, etc. This would make Brass unique for every game since not only will her weavers change, but how the skill functions will change as well.

    It goes without saying that the turret would have similar upgrade/customization options as well. This means that Brass would be a true engineer and could design her inventions to meet the needs of the map/situation. This also means that Brass would rarely be the same as another players' Brass. And the GUI is already in place since this is just a layered weaver tree.
  • falco708falco708 Member
    edited December 7
    I've been playing the new heroe for the whole day and there are some changes I would like to see:

    - The turret has a way too low aimrate
    even if it has a decent fire rate, the time it make to aim and then shoot result that the turret cannot shoot speedies and fast minions or groups
    A solution could be that if the turret is lvl3 it deals some area damage by her missiles. Or just incrase the speed of aim.
    Also I noticed that the range of the turret is way too low and has a spherical range so if you put your turret on an high things the turret lost almost all her range.

    - The 4th upgrade that make the turret regen mana and health to heroes near it is useless for heroes like Brass who don't have mana. It could be more benefic to have a damage boost, or a secondary turret, or a share of the shield of the turret so that the heroe don't take too much damage and deflect the damage like the turret.

    - The heroe has an health too low
    I'm playing level 73 with her at any difficulty and I dye a lot if I'm playing at high difficulty. It's almost like if the heroe was as fragile as midnight. A solution could be that the turret share her shield with Brass. Another one could be that Brass could craft bonus armor like Torb in overwatch (just an idea but could work i think).

    - The primary attack problem 
    Really good damage and happy to find some feels of the shootgun of precedent game but in better. But still Orc must die Unchained is not the same game as Orc must die 2. So when the shootgun was a good option for omd2, I think that in omdu you should quickly see that there are waaaayyyy more minions. So waypons that deal high damage but low radius are really weak in omdu. This result that Brass is just really weak against group and especialy against speedies. 
    A solution could be to have an upgrade to pass through the first enemy when shooting (instead of the upgrade that give you 1 scrap per second who is pretty useless, could be nice). Another solution could be to make the radius larger in low range.

    - The low range difficulty to aim 
    In omdu there are two types of heroes the one that deal distance damage and the one that deal close combat damage. The problem is that the camera is not perfectly centered for seeing where the projectile should come out and by so a lot of time the bullet just ignore the ennemy in front of the shotgun.
    This has never been a problem before because close combat heroes dealed damage without projectiles.

    -Why my landmines vanishes ?
    If you put a lot of landmine closes to each other, I was afraid that one enemy could trigg all the group but apparently not. BUT, if any enemy (even normal arrow archer) by any miracle shoot on your landmines say bye bye to all your precious ones.
    Also landmines are great but hard to put while fighting, It could be great to just press "E" and not having to hold it.


    What I love in the heroes and I don't want to see changed
    - the secondary attack who don't consum any scrap or mana or energy, it's just awesome really it's way more usefull than the old secondary of the shotgun of omd2. But I though just that it could be nice if we had a better reload time so that we could use the primary and secondary attack without waiting between (like even if the right click have a reload time of 4 sec, and the firerate of the left click is 1 shot per 2 seconds, I still cannot use "primary-primary-secondary,loop" because if minor little delays or latence)
    - The big amount of damage of the primary attack, is really great because all the heroe is viable only by this and the incredible power of the secondary attack. Seriously guy if you nerf her strengh, Brass would be even more useless than Dobbin.


    Other suggestions: 
    Stop making the turret bug when upgrade it. Sometimes (not everytimes) if I want to upgrade my turret by the upgrade of the heroe (when level up in game), I need to destroy my turret and creat a new one for the changes to apply.
    -  Make turrets and landmines and bombs's skins changes when we change the skin of Brass.
    - Make Brass a little bit faster and jump a little bit higher (So she can get nice spots for turret or control the battle with nice mobility and not just staying static like a tank).
    - The ability to heal easier our turret while she's taking damage. Usually when an enemy is attacking your turret he's close to her so when you try to repair it with "A" you just attack the enemy and don't repair the turret. 
    - Add the possibility to turn the turret while placing it.
    - Give her a bonus with a trap or an equipment for this unique heroe. It could be more damage with barrel maker or make any of the equipment viable with her (which is currently the opposite) 


    Thanks for reading my posts, I really enjoy playing her.
    I'll may add some more things if I think about new ones.
  • Oh my post got teleported here, 
    I was thinking all my ideas deserved her own thread but ok... 
  • While trying out different upgrades, I was eager to select the reduced cooldown upgrade for her cannonball attack. However, when I went unchained, I found out I could just hold the right mouse button and spam several cannonballs per second, effectively obliterating everything in front of me (or keeping minions behind the spawn gate stunned while unchained, when choosing the appropriate upgrade). I think this needs to be addressed - it feels extremely OP and I actually feel bad for exploiting this.

    This occurred to me on several Survival Rift Lord maps, but I'm guessing it applies to any game mode or map. If it matters, I use the Feeling Fierce battle trait that also grants cooldown reduction.

    I noticed this occurring for other heroes' skills as well, such as Smolder, Hogarth and Dobbin's E, but it seems the cooldown depends on the duration of the animation, which lasts long enough for these heroes that it doesn't feel like cheating (plus they all use up mana while Brass' cannonball is cost-free).

  • Yeah, the scrap and no mana makes sense but is the primary cause of several problems with Brass. As noted, scrap is used for 2 abilities total so it's not even vital to her kit. Then we have several weavers wasted on scrap instead of making her a real engineer. Brass could be so much better without scrap.
  • xpendersxxpendersx Member
    edited December 8
    khalim said:
    While trying out different upgrades, I was eager to select the reduced cooldown upgrade for her cannonball attack. However, when I went unchained, I found out I could just hold the right mouse button and spam several cannonballs per second, effectively obliterating everything in front of me (or keeping minions behind the spawn gate stunned while unchained, when choosing the appropriate upgrade). I think this needs to be addressed - it feels extremely OP and I actually feel bad for exploiting this.

    This occurred to me on several Survival Rift Lord maps, but I'm guessing it applies to any game mode or map. If it matters, I use the Feeling Fierce battle trait that also grants cooldown reduction.

    I noticed this occurring for other heroes' skills as well, such as Smolder, Hogarth and Dobbin's E, but it seems the cooldown depends on the duration of the animation, which lasts long enough for these heroes that it doesn't feel like cheating (plus they all use up mana while Brass' cannonball is cost-free).

    There are Many more heroes who can spam skills blackpaw/cygnus for example yes it is really strong but I think that is what u should be when going unchained. messing with her right click to much would in turn ruin the hero. her attack rate would be abysmal and her dmg would not justify the amount of enemies u need to kill 

    Don't get me wrong I have tried it my self and it is really strong, but so many other heroes get so strong when going unchained don't think brass should get punished for something that so many others can.

  • KjubyKjuby Member
    edited December 8
    Can you make her wrench work like this
    https://youtu.be/uCbQvMVvtys?t=16s


    And look same giant.
  • I have tried Brass a couple of times now and i cant help but feel that her turret seems a bit underwhelming compared to the rest of her kit. I think it should snap to targets a lot faster, never miss, pass through shields and maybe a bit more attack speed/damage. You could also buff her turret based weavers instead. But right now it feels a bit useless.

  • AustellAustell Member
    edited December 8
    i'm loving Brass a lot so far—she's fun, powerful, and versatile—but i do agree with some of the criticisms in this thread! the turret's range does feel a bit short—most pertinently, it's short enough that the turret will sit there getting shot by archers standing in front of a trap line, even if it's at the very back. in typical rift lord or low chaos play, at least, this doesn't actually pose a threat to the turret or the game, it's just an annoyance that doesn't seem particularly easy to build around, especially when the turret already requires very specific trap layouts to be usable.

    also, this is only a minor issue, but the blunderbuss never seems to explode enemies, unlike most attacks that do massive damage? presumably this is to do with the pellet mechanic! there's also little to no indication of how many pellets you've managed to hit a target with. the damage numbers from the blunderbuss being separated out somehow would help—both those things would make hits with the blunderbuss even more satisfying than they already are.

    the stuff with her unchained cannonball cooldown is something i've noticed as well, and i feel like it's a bug, although it's also just tremendous fun and i don't mind it in the least. another possible bug i've noticed is that her turret actually drops more scrap on death than on being dispelled—a t3 turret will drop 80 scrap if it's killed by enemies, but only 60 on a manual dispel, which i'm pretty sure is the opposite of what was said in the pre-release insider stream.
  • NarkhNarkh Member
    She seems to be at least a little bit on the strong side right now.

    Notably, her ability to knock minions back is very valuable, mines are instant-place, instant-arm from huge range with no CD and big area of effect damage.
     
    As many people in this thread already pointed out - her RMB Cannonball has no global cooldown so it can be spammed during unchained as well as used together with her LMB to maximize damage per second.

    Level 1 turret can be used as a very effective shield/decoy (just spam it level 1 as soon as it dies in the way of minions, no cooldown, no cost). With proper slows, knockback and turret-soaking damage it is nearly impossible for minions to get through.

    The only weakness seems to be archer minions, especially since the turret is small enough for them to be hitting barricades while aiming at it, so the player has to be extra careful when facing those.

    The wrench attack seems to be mostly useless, apart from upgrading the turret on easy maps.

    Unless I am missing something obvious (turret limit per map I haven't reached or some other limitation), she probably needs a bit of a nerf (probably on the E placement range or/and arm time).

    As for the general feel I'd say she plays nice, much better than the initial clunkiness of YiLin.
  • HumleHumle Member
    First of all i gotta say i love Brass toolkit with turret and mining. however it does not work :(
    my biggest problem is the turret and it is a major issue since that is her core in my opinion.

    The problem is that the turret gets targeted by way too many enemies and at higher tiers/rift lord maps it just goes down instantly since waves need to be gradually damaged and not just bottlenecked and killed like in low tier.

    The turret can not be protected behind a barricade because ranged will shoot at it and instantly destroy the barricade (not entirely sure but also seems like orc archers have longer range than the turret)

    The only effective place ive found so far is at a guardian with 2 summoner traps to help devide the wave (flip trap helps but no heavy minion flip modifier yet :( ).

    This could be fixed in alot of different ways:
    Allow us to attach the trap to walls possibly ceilings (allthough the upgrade needs a tweak then 2)
    Redesign the turret so its standing on a stick (stilt orcs style) out of the way of melee units.
    Recode the turret so its seen like a barricade not a guardian (simplest fix)
    Change a talent(upgrades) to allow the turret to be ignored by some/all enemies.
    or simply add more upgrade levels from scrap to add these things

    its simply just not worth it if you have to rebuild and reupgrade your tower every wave and i would love to see her more viable.
  • oh, on the wrench—while it is a little awkward to get up close and hit enemies one at a time, i feel it's an appropriate role for the tool as a quick way to get lots of scrap in exchange for not doing a lot of damage.

    the main problems i've had with the wrench are that (1) unusually, there's absolutely no hit-confirm when you actually hit a minion with the wrench, and (2) it doesn't really give you scrap much more quickly than the blunderbuss in early waves, because all the scrap spawns behind enemies and they're almost always moving towards you. since a bunch of them are already chasing you, it's really risky (and time-consuming) to just run into the pack to get that scrap, on top of how much time and risk you've spent getting in close.

    i think a nice fix here would be to make the wrench spawn scrap on top of Brass instead of on top of the minion it hits, letting her collect it instantly! it'd make it that much quicker and more practical to use the wrench for an early-game scrap boost, and also make it clearer whether the wrench attack hit or missed?
  • Not gonna open another thread, but she would use MP Well while she doesn't need MP at all, this thing happened to Temper and Yi-Lin before, and both of them are fixed from what I tested.
  • So how would I fix Brass?

    Well, I would get rid of scrap entirely and make her the first hero with upgradeable/customizable skills.

    So let's take her Brass Bombs. Instead of having them cost scrap, you give them a mana cost and simply use a cooldown to prevent spam. Nothing new so far.

    This is where things get interesting. Instead of her wrench (it's pretty bad anyway), we include a skill upgrade selector. So at the start of the game Brass starts with her basic Brass Bomb. At any point during the match she can research (spend gold) to upgrade/customize  the skill. This would allow her to add a slow, burn, extra damage to the bombs, change the detonation size by making it smaller but stronger, adding a delay so more enemies walk over it, or adding remote detonation, etc. The idea is to give her a choice of how to upgrade/customize the skill similar to a weaver but she has to pay gold to do it.

    3 upgrade paths of 3 options each should be enough. So if you pick 1C, then you cannot select 1A or 1B. Each time you select an upgrade the gold cost for the next upgrade increases. So if you pay 2,000 gold for 1C, then 2A/B/C will cost 4,000 gold and finally 3A/B/C will cost 6,000 gold (these values are just examples). Also, you can select any upgrade order you want so you could go 1-2-3, or go 2-3-1, or just 3, etc. This would make Brass unique for every game since not only will her weavers change, but how the skill functions will change as well.

    It goes without saying that the turret would have similar upgrade/customization options as well. This means that Brass would be a true engineer and could design her inventions to meet the needs of the map/situation. This also means that Brass would rarely be the same as another players' Brass. And the GUI is already in place since this is just a layered weaver tree.
    I definitely like this but I think they would merely just add it via scrap generation/meter instead of coin as it would cause her to require more coin than other heroes and coin acquisition in the game is finite. Definitely a good idea as it fixes a number of gripes with the hero
    Archivist of the Order, feel free to ask me any questions you have!
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