Great Zoey Skirmish (stream highlight)

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  • mathematically, the rate of fire and damage changes you suggested would have not effect on her dps during them... Also damage potential... Have you looked at smoulder recently? or stats of defensive players using her? She will often deal most player damage regardless of role and will easily out minion damage any other character. Her survivability is much higher than that of zoey, also having a reliable escape... And the thing isn't about killing potential, most characters have that in the bag. Cygnus actually has the highest dps, yes higher than zoey, he would win easily if they just stood in one place and shot each other. I don't even really care for her nuke at this point, a little sad if they got rid of it, but I don't depend on it. Though it has made a few saves before.

    so she has high damage, there are many other characters who do as well, she has no reliable escape. you can also stun her out and waste her ult easily. You also can't argue that she has a lot of health, that she moves quickly, or that she can escape from nearly any fight: she pretty much only has damage and a thing that moves you to her right several feet. Also take into consideration, she's the only character with any real form of randomness to her. You have to pray to RNGEEZUSS.

    I mean I've argued for so much nerf to her ult, if it makes you happy just get rid of it, I'd be a little sad, but not that much since it's not the core of zoey. 
    Actually, rate of fire and damage changes that he suggested makes a lot of sense, but i would disagree with changes to her primary attack. You see, her primary attack is the best long range attack in the game. It's just like AWP in Counter Strike (without one shot), and to take advantage of this, you have to play her same way that you would play with AWP. That means next: Get in to cover, peek, shot, get back in to cover, repeat = profit. This way you will out damage any hero in this game on a long range, because of highest damage per shot in this game. But enemy can take advantage of this, simply by rushing you.
    This is where rapid fire comes in. If somebody is rushing you, you can just switch to rapid fire, and gun him down. This is her design. She is a sniper type, assasin-like hero with ability to defend herself on close range. But why nobody playing with her like that? Despite the fact that she is absolutely dominating on long range, none of the good zoeys play her at long range. There is many reasons to that.

    First of all, maps design. There is nearly not enough spots where she can really put her long range power in to a good use.
    Second, playing good at long range require a lot of skill, which is not going to pay off, because of the maps design.
    Third, her rapid fire. It's just too good to not use it every single time when you fight, never getting out of it. Mana consumption is not that hight, your DPS is more then two times higher then your normal primary attack. And instead of being good at close range, it's extremely powerful at close and mid range. changes that @Jacowboy  suggested, can at least fix that part of a problem.

    Let's just break down her normal, and rapid fire primary attacks, change them, and see how it will affect her. All numbers here is from lvl 1 damage, so it is a base stats.
    Zoey has 22 damage per shot on her normal primary attack, 1 shot per 2 seconds. 8 damage per rapid fire shot, 3 shots per seconds. It's might be less then 3 shots per second, but it is faster then Smolder's primary (which is 2 shots per second), so it's might be 2.5 shots per second, or smething like that. Because i'm not sure on how many shots per second are there, i will take a lowest number (which is lower then her actual fire rate) and highest number.
    So DPS for normal primary attack is 11, when DPS for rapid fire is 16 for two shots per second, 24 for 3. I don't think that i have to tell you, that in any case, rapid fire is simply better then normal primary attack. But what if we change damage per hit of her rapid fire to 4, but rise a fire rate twice. DPS is same, but you get more punished when you miss a shot, it's will be harder to fight in mid range, when in close range everything is same. After that, what if we will just buff her normal primary from 22 per hit to, let's say, 26 per hit. It doesn't make much difference early game, but it will make her even more powerful on long range in mid-late game, because we just buffed her damage on ~20%. So her lvl 20 damage will be buffed from 60 to 72. Which is almost same damage that Bionka have right now at lvl 20 (77 if i remember right).

    So, after all of this changes, i believe that it would shift her closer to original design, making her strongest and weakest sides more pronounced, and will provide more counter play. This is my opinion. Remember, that numbers that i bring here in order to show how you can change her, are almost random, they are there just to make a point. But a base stats are her real stats.

    And please, don't compare sniper assisin-like hero, such as Zoey, with a fighter type hero, such as Smolder. They strongest and weakest sides are complitly different. Which is actually make them a really good combo. Somlder is bad at long range, Zoeys is best at long range. Smolder has no hero killing potential, Zoey has a lot of it (Smolder with 15k of player damage can have 5 kills, when Zoey with 5k of player damage can have 15 kills, i had A LOT of matches like this when i play with Jeremiah). Zoey is good at close range, Smolder is one of the best at close range. Zoey don't have much to do in order to just push enemy off (except killing them ofc), but this is basically a Smolder's role. And so on.
    "Don't trust the skull" - Planescape: Torment
  • edited August 2016
    I just wrote a whole wall of text, saw a typo, edited my post to fix it, and now it's "will appear after it will be approved"... So i will create a new thread about that, isntead of writing this whole thing agan...
    "Don't trust the skull" - Planescape: Torment
  • I love Zoey guys i really do, but Zoey right now has no place in the game if you want to play on the more competitive side. Right now there is always a better pick than Zoey unless you really can't play anyone else. Zoey on defense just isn't as good as dobbin/smolder/tundra all 3 of those heroes are just better in pretty much every way. Zoey on offence doesn't provide enough support to minions/lane partner to often it happens that i can manage to kill both defenders and just have my wave die to traps while i sit by and /cry because i can't save them. Bionka/ivy/cygnus/max are all much better attackers. Zoey pillage is just to slow at killing boxes ,uses too much mana, and not enough mobility early game.  Threads like this one can discuss how op her damage is and such and how she needs to be changed/rebalanced but at the end of the day she isn't even a real pick right now in a competitive game. She is more of a solo queue hero that can take advantage of poor teamwork. :(
  • Which is why I was suggesting some balances... As of right now, I wouldn't really play with Zoey in survival despite the fact that she's supposedly a "defender" by nature, because her primary is sort of too slow against minions, which makes her clunky and too reliant on her Q ability... and it's a shame 'cause Zoey should be one of the favorite picks for Survival since she has a lot of combo/damage potential.

    I get what MadRabbit says about her being a "sniper" kind of character, but IMO that's not really effective in a game that's partly about mob control. Even melee characters don't hit a single orc when they attack, they all attack in a wide arc that can damage multiple targets (except for specific abilities, that is)... and there's a reason for that.

    A better solution for reintroducing the "sniper-like" elements in the game would be to bring back the headshots for exemple.
  • Yes, a sniper would do jack against groups but
    ...what if their shots PIERCED 
  • edited August 2016
    xGpZx said:
    I love Zoey guys i really do, but Zoey right now has no place in the game if you want to play on the more competitive side. Right now there is always a better pick than Zoey unless you really can't play anyone else. Zoey on defense just isn't as good as dobbin/smolder/tundra all 3 of those heroes are just better in pretty much every way. Zoey on offence doesn't provide enough support to minions/lane partner to often it happens that i can manage to kill both defenders and just have my wave die to traps while i sit by and /cry because i can't save them. Bionka/ivy/cygnus/max are all much better attackers. Zoey pillage is just to slow at killing boxes ,uses too much mana, and not enough mobility early game.  Threads like this one can discuss how op her damage is and such and how she needs to be changed/rebalanced but at the end of the day she isn't even a real pick right now in a competitive game. She is more of a solo queue hero that can take advantage of poor teamwork. :(
    3 heroes that you bring as example of better defenders then Zoey, are actually benefit a great deal from having Zoey as a second defender.
    Dobbin, Smolder and Tundra have one thing in common - very little hero killing potential, which Zoey have a lot.

    Dobbin is a worst pick in Siege. He can just destroy both minion waves with ez, but if there is any heroes around, he can only hide behind his guardian, spam dynamite and cry.

    Tundra is a much better pick then Dobbin in Siege, but still don't have enough burst\sustain damage to be a real threat for enemy push. He is weak in 1v1, and can only run away from 1v2, but unlike Dobbin, he can be a real threat in 2v2.

    And my beloved Smolder... She is better pick then Dobbin or Tundra in Siege, because her entire kit is based on dealing damage. Just like a Dobbin or Tundra, she is devastating against minions, but because her kit is based on dealing damage, she is really good in 1v1, and can hold her ground in 1v2 (but not for long ofc). Her primary DPS is same as Zoey's primary attack at lvl 1 (10 + 1 DoT for 3 seconds per shot, 2 shots per second, which is 21 DPS vs Zoey's 22 DPS), and a bit better at lvl 20 (30 + 3 DoT for 3 seconds per shot = 63 DPS vs Zoey's 60 DPS). But lack of reliable burst damage, nature of her primary attack, and her tankynes makes her the best fighter hero in the game. She is the best hero to push enemy away from you (behind gate, or out of your killbox), which is great, but still, she have close to none hero killing potential.

    After all of this being said, i think it is obvious why they benefit from Zoey's so much, and why Zoey benefit from them. You see, Zoey is the best hero killing defender, and in combo with hero who is one of the best minion killer, they can be devastating for enemy team. I think that Smolder + Zoey is the best combo for defense. If Zoey can't kill her minions on her own, Smolder can help her with that (or actually do it for her). If there is enemy push, Smolder will set them at low health, and Zoey will kill them. It's a perfect combo, they are covering each other weak sides, while complementing strong sides in same time.
    This is why i think that Zoey is a good pick in Siege, you just need a right hero to go with her. Which is actually correct for any other hero in Siege.

    @melodyburst
    It's actually a great idea! But to not make it OP, i think her piercing damage needs to follow the rule of mele damage reduction (just like Smolder's right click does, which is the only non melee ability that follow that rule).
    "Don't trust the skull" - Planescape: Torment
  • edited August 2016
    After i post this some people (i will not call any names) where saying to me that Tundra is better pick then Smolder. I don't have much time atm, so i will just compare some basic stats. I use tanky build for my Smolder and i will use stats of that build. And because of that, i will have to compare lvl 6 HP (+12% max hp upgrade). I don't have much time, i can explane everything later, if you want.
    Btw, did you know that Tundra's primary attack is exactly same as Hogarth's?

    Tundra vs Smolder

    Base (lvl 1) DPS 16 vs 21
    Base Health 330 vs 314
    lvl 6 health 435 vs 445

    More damage, more HP, and even better CC at lvl 12. I think stats are speak for themself.
    "Don't trust the skull" - Planescape: Torment
  • edited August 2016
    MadRabbit said:
    More damage, more HP, and even better CC at lvl 12. I think stats are speak for themself.
    More damage is debatable, are we talking minion damage or hero damage? Hero damage yes smolder is higher there, minion damage no, Tundra destroys smolder in minion damage just with his blade of arctos.

    More health? Really? Tundra at level 20 has 701 hp and with his base health being one of the highest in the game, he is inherently very tanky. Smolder at level 20 with the weaver for max health only has 635 hp so she does not surpass Tundra. 

    Also smolder's base health is 275, not 314. tundra's is 325.

    I'm sorry but how is smolder at ALL better CC than tundra? Woo smolder gets a slow at level 12, Tundra has a wall that you can't freedom trinket through and are stuck on one side while he freezes you, freezes you again and explodes on you.

    took me 17 waves of a custom came to get to level 20 on smolder also learned that helm guardians have a LOT less health than tower guardians, kinda strange...oh and all testing was done with no health gain traits.

    The reason people MIGHT think Smolder is better is cause of her minion damage, but if you compare her minion damage to Tundra's trap damage, Tundra surpasses with flying colors, I don't think I have ever seen a Smolder do more trap+minion damage than a Tundra.

    Though I do main Tundra and have learnt how to perfect his traps for optimal damage and wave clear, ever seen a saw clear an entire wave of giants? I have done it several times at alarming rates, where smolder would sit there trying to burn down 1100+ health. 

    Might as well bring mobility in this picture as well.
    Tundra being a melee character is 10% faster than all ranged characters, Smolder's heart of flame makes her 5% faster than all melee characters but requires mana (unless you get the weaver).
    Tundra has avalanche which can easily cross the map in a matter of 5 seconds, where it would take Smolder about 15 to run all the way there (estimates there, if you want to test them go ahead).
    Tundra can't be CC'd while in his avalanche, allowing for his mobility to be super strong, while Smolder can be CC'd to stop moving (unless you take the immune to CC weaver).
    Tundra has a weaver for him to technically never stop his avalanche as long as he has mana, and doesn't hit a wall. Smolder can do the same by taking the no mana cost weaver.

    Now if we are talking about team fight scenarios, a Tundra can initiate the fight with avalanche explosion icicle burst to freeze ANYONE in his path forcing them to either use freedom trinket or be killed by the Tundra's allies, He can set-up a wall that either blocks the enemies escape or your allies retreat, he can freeze and ENTIRE TEAM with one ability, forcing them to use freedom trinket or get bursted down by his allies. With weavers, he can slow down any melee attacker that attacks him, he achieves the explosion damage that is avalanche, and he can either get shattering icicles for aoe freezes/stall, or Ice armor to shield his allies for 35% of their max health.

    Now what does Smolder bring to a team fight, She has a 30 unit pulse dot damage (heart of flame) that can be good for those annoying fire tick kills, she has incinerate for 10% of the enemies max health + additional damage per level, She has a close range sustain damage of dragon's breath which can wittle down an enemies health decently fast and she can revive if she falls. She does damage, but has no CC unless you get the T4 slow weaver and if you get that weaver instead of the CC immune weaver, in a team fight you will be stunned and bursted unless there are higher threat targets there.

    Tundra in every way is one of the strongest defenders in the game right now, the only other hero that I can think of that can pass him is dobbin, and that is ONLY cause of dobbin's tunnel, other than that Tundra has more damage than good ol dobbin, gabby is a close second if you think about it enough, imagine resetting a corner causing an ENTIRE wave to die, sadly I haven't learnt gabs enough for her to be my competitive main, she is VERY strong though in what she does. Could argue Stinkeye is good, but with his dependence on totems he can be shut down fairly easily.
    Post edited by TheFuriousD on
  • I play zoey; I don't care how much damage I do as long as everything dies. 
    From a drop of information can come a sea of extrapolation.
  • I'm actually in agreeance with Fury on this one.  Smolder is good, but a properly played Tundra will outplay her every step of the way.  The only thing about him is that he requires a bit more thought and has a tougher start in a a game.  But if he has a successful early game, he is a monster. 

    Smolder is good in her own respect and I am waiting to run into a Tundra Smolder defense... that CC and minion damage?  Ouch. 
  • edited August 2016
    @MadRabbit some people who play this game don't yet understand that defenders do not need to kill a single hero to out pace attackers. Much to often have i seen games lost because of a stray Zoey chasing heroes as a defender while her lane is free pushed by minions because she just needs that one last auto to kill a hero. At the same time i have lost many games to people who just ignore and play around you as defenders because they understand all they have to do is clear the minions and back up until they have out leveled you by game design. Fighting heroes plays right into what attackers want you to do. Right now IMO Tundra+ smolder/dobbin/sink eye/gabby is very strong because of the minion clearing. They can clear so fast that they can go pillage a whole side or get in on helping 3-5 push denying a ton of minion portal xp because nothing is worse than having your whole minion wave die at the first corner as an attacker.
    Post edited by xGpZx on
  • Yeah right now with competent defense using a hero with strong waveclear nearly guarantees a game will last until t4.

    The only thing killing an attacker really does is remove trap armor from their minions, and gets you some coin, xp, and minion portal xp. Getting rid of trap armor only helps if you do it while the enemy minions are still in your traps which is hard to do.
  • I was avoiding responding to this, because i'm lazy. As you might know, i'm Russian, and i learned English with "natural" ways (speaking with people and all like that). Because of that, i have close to none knowledge of your grammar. Before posting anything, i have to dobule check almost every word that i use, and read my post again several times, to make sure that i don't make too many mistakes. Because all of that, writing a forum post, even a small one, may take several hours from me to finish. I'm saying this, just so you know why it's taking so long for me to respond, and why sometimes i never respond at all.


    I speak with you in chat about health numbers that i use, and you already know that my numbers are correct for my tanky buld, which include traits. The reason why i'm using this build as a prime example of Smolder, because no other hero benefit from it. It is a same thing as life steal Oziel build, i don't even think that it is appropriate to compare him with other heroes, without using that build as prime example of him.

    Let's get few things out of the way. First of all, every hero has his strong and weak sides, so you can't compare every hero in tha game, and say who is the best. We can spend days debating over this, and we not going to get to any conclusion. I was speaking only about Siege pick, which is based on balance between minions killing potential and heroes killing potential. I think everybody undestand, that there is a few differences in good hero pick for Siege and Survival. Everybody undestand that Bloodspike isn't a really good pick in Survival, while he is a good pick in Siege. Same goes for defenders in Siege. 

    Let's take a Dobbin for example. He can set up a "murder corner" in his killbox, filled with physical traps, use his "Dust Devil" in this corner, and because of physical armor reduction, everything that reach his "Dust Devil" will just die, even with other heroes inside of his killbox. It's really good, and might even sounds like it is OP, but it is too easy to counter. Because he only good at minion clearing only while minions inside of his killbox (because of traps buff and his damage buff from Dust Devil). If minions get past it, he is not even remotely good at minion clearing as he was. Just focus him, and he will have to fall back, because he is good at killing minions, while he is bad at killing heroes. Same goes for Tundra. While he is better at killing minions outside of his killbox, and he is a bit better at killing heroes, his weakness remains the same. 

    That's brings us to Smolder. While Dobbin and Tundra is better in killing minions inside of they killboxes, she is much stronger then them while minions are outside of her killbox, and she is much better in killing heroes. It is beacuse her minions killing potential comes from her damage, and as you know, it doesn't really matter where this damage was done, and damage is also applies to heroes. That's why Smolder is a better pick in Siege.

    If you push Dobbin or Tundra out of the killbox or killed him, you know that minions will get to the guardian. If you do same with Smolder, your chanses of getting minions to the guardian are much slimmer. Unlike Dobbin or Tundra, you don't have to be inside of your killbox, to make your killbox do more damage (Tundra's CC, Dobbin's Dust Devil), because she buffs her killbox with her special trap. Unlike Dobbin or Tundra, she can 1v1 every hero in the game (expect Bloodspike, he have too much survivability).

    And about better CC, i was talking about CC vs players. After update, freeze no longer going to affect heroes, which means that Tundra will have only his E as CC versus heroes. While his freeze is AoE, this AoE is really small, so you can't freez 5 man, and if enemy team if expecting it, you will be able to freeze 2 attackers only with luck. Smolder's CC has much bigger area and does very good burst damage on lvl 10+. Area is so big, that you can actually slow 5 with no problem at all. Smolder does 35% slow for 4-6 seconds (not sure on exact number), which is just huge. 

    About what @xGpZx , @lordbeef and other people said:

    First of all, you don't out leveled attack by game design, you do this only because dobule push is a meta right now. You are getting twice a much XP, because you gathering XP from both lanes. While attackers get 100% for two heroes, you get 200%. It's a sad truth, but many of good heroes, such as Ivy, can't really 1v1, that's why they have to double push, otherwise they are going to be out leveled because they will lose every single fight. If you don't belive me, you can check 1.2 patch notes.

    Second, if you have a good hero killing potential, it doesn't mean that you have to kill enemy heroes to get benefit from that potential. The bigger hero killing potential you have, the bigger threat for enemy heroes you are. For example, if i see enemy Hogarth solo push my lane, in most cases i can just ignore him and kill all the minions while he can only cry in a corner. In same time, if i see Zoey solo pushing my lane, i know that i have to kill or push her off, because otherwise she will kill or push me off before i can kill all her minions.

    You see, enemy attack does not want you to attack them, or to attack they minions, they want you to not attack at all. Only way to achieve that is by killing you, or by pushing you off. If you think that your minions have even remote chance to get to the rift, if enemy defense will kill or push you off the killbox, isntead of killing minions, you are wrong. Those minions are going to die, without you keeping defenders out of them. You give them what they want not by attacking them, allowing them to push you off from your own killbox, without pushing them back. Dobbin is a great defender, but he can't defend if he dead, or get pushed back to his rift. This is actually main advantage that defense have over enemey attack, is the fact that you can heal multiple times, and they can't. If you not use this advantage, you pretty much wasting it.

    Of course you don't have to hero seeking, you have to know when to attack minions, and when to attack heroes. If you know that you can't kill enemy hero, like in case of Hogarth solo push, you have to focus minions. If you can kill that hero, like in case of Ivy solo push, you should focus hero. There is much more depth in this topic, i'm just trying to keep it nice and short (and i faild at that). But in any case, if you just ignore enemy attack, you are playing passive, and you just letting them to abuse that to they own advantage.

    I probably missed many good points that i was going to make, but this post is alredy to big.
    "Don't trust the skull" - Planescape: Torment
  • nerf zoeys dmg output and smolders E range or better limit it to X targets.
  • @MadRabbit but you are out leveled by game design because both lanes do not open at the start of the game the  issue with it is on both maps if there is an enemy tundra who knows where to place wall/traps you will lose your entire wave in the first corner giving defenders full xp because that is obviously how defenders gain xp and attackers need to keep minions alive. So if you are minion clearing fast enough and defenders are playing smart enough you can pretty much clear all the minions and get out without dying immediately. Do this a few times and you will naturally out level attackers and after that you will clear so fast that you will even be able to stick around and fight. I can assure you enemy attackers want you to attack them because it makes it easy to direct the damage away from the minion wave especially early game. Characters such as Blood Spike and Bionka especially want you to attack them because they will simply heal your damage and more than likely secure a kill on you. Ignoring attackers is not playing passive even in the slightest it is so aggressive because you are hitting them where it hurts the most XP. Those are my 2 cents on it and my experience on it. The greatest people at putting this into practice are @N0thing, @hoosurjustin, and @TheFuriousD it is incredibly annoying to play against these players because IMO they are part of the handful of defenders who know how to play the game. 

  • The funny thing @Surrena, is Cygnus actually has a better damage output than Zoey, but most people don't realize this because they have a hard time hitting anything with him. Play him right and he'll be the highest damage in the game, hard to do, but just putting that out there.
    From a drop of information can come a sea of extrapolation.
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