Clarification on Cursed ground refire rate pls

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  • Atm, to put it bluntly, brimstone appears to be utter orc. It costs way too much for a trap that's down 95% of the time.
    you aren't supposed to use brim in a crowded area...
    Look here Terry, I don't know about you but I need help managing hordes. A trap that can't do that looses a lot of stock in my eyes. When you say "you aren't supposed to use it in a crowded area" I see no contradiction with what I said, particularly when for 1500 gold there are more flexible traps.

  • Atm, to put it bluntly, brimstone appears to be utter orc. It costs way too much for a trap that's down 95% of the time.
    you aren't supposed to use brim in a crowded area...
    Look here Terry, I don't know about you but I need help managing hordes. A trap that can't do that looses a lot of stock in my eyes. When you say "you aren't supposed to use it in a crowded area" I see no contradiction with what I said, particularly when for 1500 gold there are more flexible traps.

    brim is actually very useful, it won't deal mass damage to hordes but it significantly weakens them for you to give the final blow. the best use is not put it in a killbox, but rather put them along the route and keeping enough distances so that they don't stack.

    as for gold issue, using potion of luck will get you many coin in the beginning, then extra trap = extra money and the effect snowballs.

    you can refer to this video, where 5 brimstones successfully stalled/incinerated the whole bottom lane


    if you still find brimstone not strong enough, either you have lower tier trap or lower account level, in that case, well, good luck grinding :)
  • GhengisJohnGhengisJohn Member
    edited December 2016
    Atm, to put it bluntly, brimstone appears to be utter orc. It costs way too much for a trap that's down 95% of the time.
    you aren't supposed to use brim in a crowded area...
    Look here Terry, I don't know about you but I need help managing hordes. A trap that can't do that looses a lot of stock in my eyes. When you say "you aren't supposed to use it in a crowded area" I see no contradiction with what I said, particularly when for 1500 gold there are more flexible traps.

    brim is actually very useful, it won't deal mass damage to hordes but it significantly weakens them for you to give the final blow. the best use is not put it in a killbox, but rather put them along the route and keeping enough distances so that they don't stack.

    as for gold issue, using potion of luck will get you many coin in the beginning, then extra trap = extra money and the effect snowballs.

    you can refer to this video, where 5 brimstones successfully stalled/incinerated the whole bottom lane


    if you still find brimstone not strong enough, either you have lower tier trap or lower account level, in that case, well, good luck grinding :)
    I like how you automatically assume that if I disagree with you I must not know what I'm talking about or how to use the trap. Very insulting. That last line there is just the icing on the cake. When you level the damage of all traps should increase right? How would this make the brimstone proportionately better than any of the traps it was worse than in the first place? Even then I never said the problem was the damage did I? I stated the problems were downtime and flexibility.
    Post edited by GhengisJohn on
  • I'm insulting you? how? I simply stated my opinion which happens to be different than yours, and you find that insulting?

    The point of damage is that, minions' health does not scale according to your level and trap tier, therefore the more you grind, the less difficult a map would be. Once you leveled and upgraded brim high enough, the damage from brimstone would be significant to minions. Although damage-wise it may still not be proportionally as good as other traps, minions would die fast enough for you to clear a map.

    To put it in numbers, let's say a minion has 300 hp, at tier 1, brim does 134 damage while floorspike does 170 damage, which makes brim not as good as floorspike in terms of clearing hordes; but at tier 7, brim does 327 damage while floorspike does 414 damage. Although brim still does less damage than floorspike, both traps can kill that minion now, therefore difference between brim and floorspike are not as significant in high tiers in terms of horde killing.

    And brim is better than floorspike because the of the excellent DOT lasting damage, which can weaken hordes significantly over time compared to floorspike.

    Downtime and flexibility should not be considered a problem, since you shouldn't expect brimstone to be up all the time, its job is more focused on long route DOT and kobold/satyr killing instead of mass killing.
  • I don't think it would be balanced if Brimstone had equivalent raw DPS/coin compared to Floor Spike. The Brimstone fire DoT comes with a lot of synergies, like Naptha, Fire Resonators, and making orcs flail about all crazy like.
  • ScizSciz Member, Master Founder, Early Access
    Oh boy, math. Let me contribute:

    Brimstone:
    • 134.4 damage per charge / 7.7 seconds per charge = 17.45 damage per second
    • 1500 coin / 17.45 damage per second = 85.96 coin per damage per second
    Floor Spikes:
    • 170 damage per activation / 7 seconds per activation = 24.29 damage per second
    • 500 coin / 24.29 damage per second = 20.58 coin per damage per second
    • With the potential to hit more than one enemy per activation, thereby doubling or even tripling its efficiency.
    Okay, but Brimstone is always on and starts with ten charges, so doesn't that count for something? And you're right, as a screen for stuff that makes it through your killbox, it's not bad under the right circumstances. But there's also a trap that exists explicitly to handle that role:

    Fire Cracker:
    • 63 damage per charge / 7.7 seconds per charge = 8.18 damage per second
    • 500 coin / 8.18 damage per second = 61.12 coin per damage per second
    Put two of them down and you're doing as much damage as one brimstone for 2/3rds of the cost, and they're three traps wide to boot so you don't have to worry about stuff avoiding it. Brimstone only ekes out an advantage when you're dealing with narrow hallways, short routes, low trap cap, or in the most likely case, your Fire Crackers are way underleveled because they're a master-grade epic trap and only a handful of lucky people are getting them to a decent tier any time soon.

    All that said, these traps aren't supposed to be recharging at 7.7 seconds per in the first place.
  • Sciz said:
    Oh boy, math. Let me contribute:

    Brimstone:
    • 134.4 damage per charge / 7.7 seconds per charge = 17.45 damage per second
    • 1500 coin / 17.45 damage per second = 85.96 coin per damage per second
    Floor Spikes:
    • 170 damage per activation / 7 seconds per activation = 24.29 damage per second
    • 500 coin / 24.29 damage per second = 20.58 coin per damage per second
    • With the potential to hit more than one enemy per activation, thereby doubling or even tripling its efficiency.
    Okay, but Brimstone is always on and starts with ten charges, so doesn't that count for something? And you're right, as a screen for stuff that makes it through your killbox, it's not bad under the right circumstances. But there's also a trap that exists explicitly to handle that role:

    Fire Cracker:
    • 63 damage per charge / 7.7 seconds per charge = 8.18 damage per second
    • 500 coin / 8.18 damage per second = 61.12 coin per damage per second
    Put two of them down and you're doing as much damage as one brimstone for 2/3rds of the cost, and they're three traps wide to boot so you don't have to worry about stuff avoiding it. Brimstone only ekes out an advantage when you're dealing with narrow hallways, short routes, low trap cap, or in the most likely case, your Fire Crackers are way underleveled because they're a master-grade epic trap and only a handful of lucky people are getting them to a decent tier any time soon.

    All that said, these traps aren't supposed to be recharging at 7.7 seconds per in the first place.
    Thank you.
  • I don't think it would be balanced if Brimstone had equivalent raw DPS/coin compared to Floor Spike. The Brimstone fire DoT comes with a lot of synergies, like Naptha, Fire Resonators, and making orcs flail about all crazy like.
    It could certainly stand to be a lot better than it is right now though. Compare it to floor scorcher, or spitfire wall as a source of fire damage and brimstone underperforms.


  • terrysongcnterrysongcn Member
    edited December 2016
    @Sciz
    I think brim outperforms firecracker in every aspect.

    First, difference between 1*1 and 3*0.5 is not an issue. Because in a long route minions are likely to walk in a straight line. This is due to the nature of the in-game built path-finding algorithm. 3*0.5 is just a waste of space since minions will converge on one tile anyway.

    Second, you pointed it out yourself, with 2 firecrackers you can only achieve 1 brim's damage. Every trap quota is precious so why not use them to the best potential? The dps for firecracker is just horrible.

    Third, brim doesn't suit for short route, but rather for long route. Both brim and firecracker performs badly in a killbox. Their job is pretty much as a combo enabler. As far as weakening minions is concerned, both brim and firecracker requires a long route. In either situation, brim outperforms firecracker in dps and damage per trap cap ratio.

    Last, the only concern is the cost. Yet the difference between brim and firecracker is quite slim in terms of damage/coin ratio. Besides with the help of potion of luck/coin trait/combo, I don't want to spend 2 times of trap quota to save that little bit of coin.
    Post edited by terrysongcn on
  • lordbeef said:
    I don't think it would be balanced if Brimstone had equivalent raw DPS/coin compared to Floor Spike. The Brimstone fire DoT comes with a lot of synergies, like Naptha, Fire Resonators, and making orcs flail about all crazy like.
    It could certainly stand to be a lot better than it is right now though. Compare it to floor scorcher, or spitfire wall as a source of fire damage and brimstone underperforms.


    brim under-performs scorcher and spitfire wall? no way!

    Brimstone is the type of trap that I would consider to use short-spring part on. It's charge-based. Scorcher and spitfire wall are cooldown-based. Brim can reliably provide full damage with 10 charges on 10 minions. Scorcher and spitfire wall can hardly hit that many minions in one or two cooldowns.

    The best use of brim is on multi-lane maps, where you single defend one lane and leave other lanes to traps, like the cases in highland or frostbite. Minion's parade length is not longer than 14 tiles in those maps. Minions' running speed is around one tile per second. Which means scorcher and spitfire wall won't have the chance to fire the third time for one wave. And if they only fire twice, they can't hit more than 10 minions outside of a killbox without hero using ability to slow/stun them. Let alone the fact that fire damage speeds up the minion, which makes even shorter times for scorcher/spitfire to reset cooldowns.

    And that's the reason why brim outperforms them. A steady source of damage on 10 minions.

    I think you would consider brim underperforming because you, like John did, use brim in a killbox and find it out of charge all the time while scorcher/spitfire don't have this problem. But do remember that they are not supposed to be used in a killbox due to the low dps. You have much better choices, even a floor spike works better than brimstone in a killbox.
  • ScizSciz Member, Master Founder, Early Access
    First, difference between 1*1 and 3*0.5 is not an issue. Because in a long route minions are likely to walk in a straight line. This is due to the nature of the in-game built path-finding algorithm. 3*0.5 is just a waste of space since minions will converge on one tile anyway.
    This is not true in all cases, or you could reliably build a single trap-width strip and ignore the rest of any given corridor, which isn't what happens in practice. It is especially untrue when it comes to runners, which are the major things you want to catch down a lane anyway.
    Second, you pointed it out yourself, with 2 firecrackers you can only achieve 1 brim's damage. Every trap quota is precious so why not use them to the best potential? The damage/coin ratio for firecracker is just horrible.
    The damage/coin ratio for fire crackers is better than brimstone. If you absolutely, positively have to squeeze as much damage as you can out of your trap cap, then sure, use brimstone instead (or rather, don't, because its dps isn't great to begin with), but that's not usually the top concern.
    Their job is pretty much as a combo enabler.
    They're both bad at it at current charge rates. And if you're actually after as many combos as possible, then you want to use the weaker trap with the same burn duration to keep them alive longer.

    The only place I want to use brimstone right now is at the tail end of a heavily barricaded killbox where I want to guarantee damage on a handful of heavy things that still aren't dead yet.
  • Sciz said:
    This is not true in all cases, or you could reliably build a single trap-width strip and ignore the rest of any given corridor, which isn't what happens in practice. It is especially untrue when it comes to runners, which are the major things you want to catch down a lane anyway.
    Of course you can reliably build a single trap-width strip, as long as the route to rift is long enough. Just imagine the eventide (surrounded) map, once you funneled all lanes together, would minions still spread themselves?

    If you still don't agree, there are many videos to prove that. Here is one example
    https://v.qq.com/x/page/d0351g2gw6b.html
    watch how the bottom left lane is handled with brims/tars

    Sciz said:
    The damage/coin ratio for fire crackers is better than brimstone. If you absolutely, positively have to squeeze as much damage as you can out of your trap cap, then sure, use brimstone instead (or rather, don't, because its dps isn't great to begin with), but that's not usually the top concern.
    Of course you should use your trap to their fullest potential as far as trap cap is concerned. Why wouldn't you?

    Brim's dps IS the greatest compared to other traps on a long route.

    Sciz said:
    They're both bad at it at current charge rates. And if you're actually after as many combos as possible, then you want to use the weaker trap with the same burn duration to keep them alive longer.

    The only place I want to use brimstone right now is at the tail end of a heavily barricaded killbox where I want to guarantee damage on a handful of heavy things that still aren't dead yet.
    Since current 5 star system doesn't incorporate combo factor. I would not go after as many combos as possible. That being said, I wish I could bring both brim and firecracker at the same time. Sadly I'm only allowed to bring 7 traps. If I have to choose between them two, of course I'd choose brim.
  • Sciz, you might want to at least consider what Terry is saying. He's the god of survival after all.
  • JacowboyJacowboy Member, Early Access
    edited December 2016
    The scorcher has its mini-flip ability back, so scorcher trumps any other fire trap... end of discussion :p
    Post edited by Jacowboy on
  • JuicyJuicy Member, Master Founder, Early Access
    Sciz, you might want to at least consider what Terry is saying. He's the god of survival after all.
    Oh good lord. He's not the only person that's beaten all the levels, beaten them all solo, etc. - he's just the one with the most time on his hands ;)

    And then Sciz is a numbers guy. The problem is they're looking at the problem from two different logistical points of view. That said, I kind of agree with Sciz. If you line a hallway with nothing but tar and brimstone, it's going to be terribly inefficient. If you drop ballistae or something in there too, then it's fine. On the other hand, if you want a trap at the end of your killbox for a normal level playthrough, you may as well bring a firecracker. You can lay a couple and be done with it for the same price as brimstone, and it serves the same goal. Runners get lit on fire, and if it's literally the last trap in your killbox, then nothing else should really be getting to it anyways.

    Worth noting - potential upside to firecrackers is they light everything on them on fire when they light. Which means if you've got hordes walking through a wide hallway, it could potentially like 5 minions on fire at once. Brim usually get ~2?

    They do both actually have merit.

    Jacowboy said:
    The scorcher has its mini-flip ability back, so scorcher trumps any other fire trap... end of discussion :p

    But I agree with that ;P. Downside is my 7-trap-loadout doesn't usually have space for it ;P
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  • I thought the argument between me and sciz is whether brim is better than firecracker?

    Lining up a hallway with brims will never be as effective as building a main killbox there with enough trap quota and trap variety. But due to the restriction of trap cap, you don't always get to build a main killbox on every lane. As far as off-defending is concerned, brim is simply better than firecracker. I don't see why it would be otherwise.

    As for using them to finish runners exiting a killbox, why would firecracker be better with a lower dps? and why would a killbox leave out an open wide exit for minions? even killbox without barricades will have minions converge somewhere along the route, one brim on the corner will normally do the job better than a firecracker right after a killbox.

    Again, I don't see why brim will be worse than firecracker in any aspect.
  • JuicyJuicy Member, Master Founder, Early Access
    Again, I don't see why brim will be worse than firecracker in any aspect.
    Because firecrackers are wider. I've done killboxes that are 3 traps wide, and just put ice shards and arrow walls in them. In an instance like that, where the map limits the minions down to 3 traps wide, a firecracker is a catch-all. You can lay one firecracker and guarantee that if a runner slips past, it will catch it. If you have brimstone, you can't without placing 3 (cost 4500 instead of 500).

    Sciz's argument is that the brimstone doesn't do enough damage to be worth bringing as a damaging trap, it's really just a catch-all. And at that point, there isn't much reason to take it over a firecracker, since a firecracker is better at covering a larger area (see paragraph above) for a smaller cost.

    It's worse in the idea that you're not using brimstone as a damage dealer, but as an insurance policy, because the firecracker is cheaper and wider. That means it's easier to lay down (cost wise), and it's easier to guarantee it will hit something (cost/trap cap wise).

    Granted, if you're using brimstone to deal damage constantly, sure, it's better. If you're using it behind the entire rest of your killbox incase a kobold gets through, it's overkill, and at the point you have no reason to use it over a firecracker. The firecracker would be cheaper and cover a wider area.
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  • but I thought I argued about this area issue before? instead of putting a firecracker immediately by the end of your killbox, you could totally put a brimstone a bit further away at a corner and you can still catch all runners, because minions cut corners to run the shortest path, they will not keep spreading forever.

    Examples are everywhere, left lane in avalanche, top right in crogon keep, middle lane in the wall...the wider area argument is just invalid since minions do eventually line up and converge.

    Brim is the best damaging trap OUTSIDE of a killbox, there simply isn't a better one atm.
  • rayleiraylei Member
    edited December 2016
    Brimstones and cursed ground are good for killing minions like soliders for the last hits and stuffs like terry said. Firecracker can be place at so many good spots. You can also make them vertical to kill kobolds. You can put them at the entrance of a killbox in couple maps. I am not going to argue which one is better. They all have their own advantages.

    I would bring both if it is a snow map. I would bring the Firecracker if there are good spots for it. I would bring the Brimstone/Firecracker in general if you like either of it.
    Post edited by raylei on
    So this is how we add small words under our post/comments.
  • GhengisJohnGhengisJohn Member
    edited December 2016
    Why limit the discussion to brimstone vs firecrackers though? Frankly brimstone is up for comparison with any trap that costs 1500 or less. And since Terry keeps moving the goal post around from "only rely on it to finish guys off" when compared to heavier traps to "it does more damage" when compared to firecrackers I think we can assume that in order to say that brimstone is actually good we have to accept that brimstone is a trap that actually doesn't do anything all that well.
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