Thoughts About Archers

I'm curious to hear from others what their opinions are on the matter. That being said here are my thoughts on Archers.

Currently in game I feel as though Archers are a bit broken, I say this because they have the ability to shoot you through other minions. When playing as a melee Hero sometimes you start taking mass amounts of damage out of nowhere and can't even see the source of it. This showcases how disadvantaged we are as players when you take into account that a ranged Hero can't shoot through their melee Hero teammates. So, I guess I just feel like either my teammates should be able to kill the enemy by being allowed to shoot through me the same way Archers can shoot through their team; Or Archers should need to have a clear line of sight to hit you with their shots the same way Players are required to.

To be perfectly honest I'd rather have Archers need to have a clear line of sight rather than allowing my team to shoot through me, seeing as we Players already have the idea of not being able to shoot through our teammates.

I feel like something needs taking a look at, at the very least ;) How about the rest of you, what are your thoughts?
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Comments

  • TimeMasterTimeMaster Member, Early Access
    Well, they actually DO NOT shoot through other minions. And is actually pretty hard to be hit by them when a mass of minions is in front of you as melee.
  • Well, they actually DO NOT shoot through other minions. And is actually pretty hard to be hit by them when a mass of minions is in front of you as melee.
    Really? I don't have footage on hand, but I die from archers who are in the back of a pack of like 20 orcs "All The Time" ;) I can see my hp dropping from the melee minions then all of a sudden take huge spikes of damage and get killed by Archers. Death Recap will even say so. So maybe I simply experience a constant bug where they DO shoot through other minions, but I'm not the only one. It happens to me in game with friends so I know they have experienced it as well.
  • TimeMasterTimeMaster Member, Early Access
    Well... I experienced some situations that I was hit by archers "through" minions too. But they are supposed not to and they don't most cases for me. 

    Probably because hero hitboxes are pretty big and the arrows are pretty small.
  • JuicyJuicy Member, Master Founder, Early Access
    They don't shoot "through" minions. The thing is those guys are damn tall, and they can shoot BETWEEN people. So it's possible for them to be in the back and still be hitting you. The catch is that most ranged characters can shoot their heads (like I said, they're tall) and most melee should just dive to the back to kill em, or are close enuf to the wave that the archers should be hitting the backs of orcs.

    Realistically, my only problem with them (as an avid midnight player) is when I finish killing the wave, the xbowmen in the back are shooting me.
    Welcome to Juicy's Midnight Assassination Service. You grab em, I'll stab em.
  • I suppose I just need to try and focus more and hope not to be shot BETWEEN the enemies. I'm bad at games though, so I'll probably still die all the time ;)
  • ShadeDevShadeDev Member, Robot Entertainment, Early Access, Apprentice Founder, Featured Developer
    Yeah, they don't shoot through minions.  It used to be super frustrating when they did.
    Doug Houserman
    Robot Entertainment | Lead Balance Designer
  • I have two problems with archers: The first is that they tend to hit and damage barricades when at a different elevation than you (perhaps their AI could be modified so that they advance until they have a clear shot?), and the second is that their arrows still hit you even if it looks like they should have missed by a foot or more, which combined with their excellent target-leading skills makes them really hard to dodge.
  • ShadeDevShadeDev Member, Robot Entertainment, Early Access, Apprentice Founder, Featured Developer
    I have two problems with archers: The first is that they tend to hit and damage barricades when at a different elevation than you (perhaps their AI could be modified so that they advance until they have a clear shot?), and the second is that their arrows still hit you even if it looks like they should have missed by a foot or more, which combined with their excellent target-leading skills makes them really hard to dodge.
    They hit barricades intentionally.
    Doug Houserman
    Robot Entertainment | Lead Balance Designer
  • The archers used to be way worse. I think the normal (non-explosive) archers are in a decent spot. 
  • SeanPoeSeanPoe Member, Early Access
    I think it's important to point out that there's at least 2 different types of archer.  There's the orc archers which are perfectly fine and balanced (maybe slightly too weak even) and the human archers which on the other hand are very strong for a combination of reasons. 

    They have the standard human soldier passive that reduces all damage they take to a flat ~20 for ~3s when they get low hp and this also prevents one shots on them too.  This makes them very hard to quickly kill like the orc archers.

    Their arrows don't have the very visible burning fire like the orc archers so it's hard to see the projectiles.  When there's a lot of stuff going on on the screen (e.g., lots of particles everywhere) they're nearly impossible to see sometimes.  This makes it much harder to dodge them and anticipate when the next arrow is coming. 

    They hit hard, much harder than the orc archers or pretty much any other standard enemy.  At level 42 doing RL throne room (46-55 map) the human archers can kill Max or Gabriella in only 2 arrows. 

    Now I don't personally think the human archers are OP because you can deal with them by just using line of sight to force them into the killbox to die that way, but i do think their arrows should be more visible so it doesn't feel like you got killed out of no where. 
  • You have found the reason why they were my top early game choice in Siege :) nowadays you can avoid them easily by putting an enemy between yourself and them but what I always do is simply attack them first, before they can deal too much damage and back attack the rest of the wave, very useful when there are shield users in the wave also. That's with melee though, with ranged simply do what you would do in any PvP shooter game to the best of your ability.
  • I dislike how much larger your hitbox is compared to your model.  I see flaming arrows wiz by my elbows all the time but I still take damage.

  • The other major issue with archers' current implementation is that they will not advance when any target is in range. Archers in previous OMD games would fire once, then walk several feet forward before firing again. OMDU archers will cheerfully park themselves outside of a killbox or JUST in range of a guardian and continue to fire until they die or their target does. This is a serious issue that causes archers to naturally clump up into extremely dangerous piles and make them even more lethal.
    That's what I was talking about. When that happens on an area with lower elevation than you are currently on, you get large squads of them rapidly pumping arrows into the nearest barricade and destroying it before you can deal with them.
  • nthornnthorn Member
    edited March 8
    my tips:
    run up to them and they will begin to walk forward instead of shooting.
    use line of sight to force them into your box.
    constantly run around to avoid projectiles
    put a trap where they gather in front of your box
    spam health siphon
  • Dealing with Archers can be a challenge, certainly. I tend to adopt different tactics depending on whether I play Melee or Ranged Heroes.

    Ranged - I fight from a corner / cover. If no cover is available and I know Archers have got me zeroed... I tend to spam-strafe left/right (so it looks like I'm stood still), and watch their arrows fly off to the sides (doesn't work 100%, but it helps).

    Melee - I tend to rush behind them and take them out, as they usually don't turn around. This can be a problem with other minions then coming up behind you, but you have to work fast.

    As it's been mentioned - I don't know why they seem to target barricades from a different elevation. Surely if they wanted to target barricades then they'd be attacking them constantly? I don't see why the barricade should suffer collateral damage when the Archer is shooting at the Hero. What I assume is happening is that the Archer has partial line of sight to the Hero, shoots AT the Hero, but hits a barricade that's between him and the Hero. I'll have to test this properly.

    Obviously, using Decoy traps also works - although GOOD placement of Decoys needs a little thought.
  • As it's been mentioned - I don't know why they seem to target barricades from a different elevation. Surely if they wanted to target barricades then they'd be attacking them constantly? I don't see why the barricade should suffer collateral damage when the Archer is shooting at the Hero. What I assume is happening is that the Archer has partial line of sight to the Hero, shoots AT the Hero, but hits a barricade that's between him and the Hero. I'll have to test this properly.
    Yeah, I'm pretty sure it happens when the archer can see the Hero but a barricade is between where the crossbow bolt spawns and where the Hero is.
  • ShadeDevShadeDev Member, Robot Entertainment, Early Access, Apprentice Founder, Featured Developer
    Collateral damage is intended to discourage players from fighting near barricades.
    Doug Houserman
    Robot Entertainment | Lead Balance Designer
  • That's not the problem, exactly. If we're on level ground, I can stand right next to or on top of my barricades and their arrows will pass safely over them into me. If the archers are lower than me and I am a short-to-moderate distance away from my barricades, that's when they wind up shooting arrows directly into the barricades. You get punished for not standing close enough to the barricades, but only when there is that elevation difference. It's counterintuitive and arbitrary.
  • I actually enjoy the archer play.  Adds something to think about but not worry a whole lot over as tgey do not deal massive damage to the cades.  If they destroyed them easily, then I'd have a problem, but it takes them a while. 
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