weavers that don't make sense

I will list some weavers that I think don't make sense to me. Hope devs could have a look into them.

Blackpaw:
Kindred Souls Increases damage dealt by Blackpaw's spirit gnolls by +15.
super high mana cost for a very short duration, why would anyone rely on spirit gnolls to deal damage? a pathetic +15 damage is nothing.


Cygnus:
Mana Miser Eliminates the mana cost of Voltaic Charge when Rift Lord is active.
when rift lord is active, the mana cost of voltaic charge can be recovered ANYWAY, plus who will spam voltaic charge instead of chain lightening while rift lord is active?

Tough Old Geezer Adds +50% damage reduction to Rift Lord.
Why would anybody use Cygnus to tank damage?


Dobbin:
Diamond Armor Grants allies that use Mineshaft Shortcut a temporary shield worth 20% of their max health.
This is a siege weaver, why is it still here in pve?


Midnight:
Feeling Frisky Reduces Midnight's respawn time to 1.5s.
Choosing this weaver is like taping a big "I suck at midnight therefore I need this weaver to survive" tab in the forehead, I can't imagine why would anyone choose this. Health generation is much more useful.

Sharing the Shadow Activating Prowl causes allies near Midnight to also enter Prowl for 5s.
This weaver will stop whatever your allies are doing and force them into stealth, thus making it a great troll trick when you are aiming for high team combos. But for serious gameplay? no benefit at all. It would be great for siege, but not for pve.


Oziel:
Consecration [[Soul Harvest always generates soul stacks from deaths on Desecrated Ground.
so...devs expect us to throw down a jar and somehow magically rush to the other side of the map with his slow speed so that he could benefit from soul harvesting from both locations at the same time?

Spiritual Connection Oziel gains +5% of his max mana when he damages a Haunted enemy with Vampiric Slash.
really? Not to mention the long cooldown to be able to haunt minions, recover mana? for oziel? lol?


Smolder:
Phoenix Heart Reduces the cooldown of From the Ashes by 60s.
Resilient Increases health and mana returned by From the Ashes by +100%.
pretty much like Midnight, who would choose these weavers?

Wildfire Smolder becomes immune to control effects during Heart of Flame.
Very good weaver for siege but useless in pve

Comments

  • TimeMasterTimeMaster Member, Early Access
    I agree with those:

    I will list some weavers that I think don't make sense to me. Hope devs could have a look into them.

    Blackpaw:
    Kindred Souls Increases damage dealt by Blackpaw's spirit gnolls by +15.
    super high mana cost for a very short duration, why would anyone rely on spirit gnolls to deal damage? a pathetic +15 damage is nothing.


    Cygnus:
    Tough Old Geezer Adds +50% damage reduction to Rift Lord.
    Why would anybody use Cygnus to tank damage?


    Dobbin:
    Diamond Armor Grants allies that use Mineshaft Shortcut a temporary shield worth 20% of their max health.
    This is a siege weaver, why is it still here in pve?


    Midnight:

    Sharing the Shadow Activating Prowl causes allies near Midnight to also enter Prowl for 5s.
    This weaver will stop whatever your allies are doing and force them into stealth, thus making it a great troll trick when you are aiming for high team combos. But for serious gameplay? no benefit at all. It would be great for siege, but not for pve.


    Oziel:
    Spiritual Connection Oziel gains +5% of his max mana when he damages a Haunted enemy with Vampiric Slash.
    really? Not to mention the long cooldown to be able to haunt minions, recover mana? for oziel? lol?


    Smolder:
    Resilient Increases health and mana returned by From the Ashes by +100%.
    pretty much like Midnight, who would choose these weavers?

    Wildfire Smolder becomes immune to control effects during Heart of Flame.
    Very good weaver for siege but useless in pve

    I don't agree with:


    Cygnus:
    Mana Miser Eliminates the mana cost of Voltaic Charge when Rift Lord is active.
    when rift lord is active, the mana cost of voltaic charge can be recovered ANYWAY, plus who will spam voltaic charge instead of chain lightening while rift lord is active?



    Midnight:
    Feeling Frisky Reduces Midnight's respawn time to 1.5s.
    Choosing this weaver is like taping a big "I suck at midnight therefore I need this weaver to survive" tab in the forehead, I can't imagine why would anyone choose this. Health generation is much more useful.


    Oziel:
    Consecration [[Soul Harvest always generates soul stacks from deaths on Desecrated Ground.
    so...devs expect us to throw down a jar and somehow magically rush to the other side of the map with his slow speed so that he could benefit from soul harvesting from both locations at the same time?

    Smolder:
    Phoenix Heart Reduces the cooldown of From the Ashes by 60s.
    Mana Miser let's you refill the mana very fast in case that you don't have any and use the rift with that playstyle.

    Feeling Frisky is pretty useful for new people and I think it might even allow some fun and crazy strats.

    Consacration is useful to secure souls. I'm unsure if the souls are 100% given now from nearby minions but you can throw the jar pretty far and sit back and get them with it. In case the souls aren't 100% this weaver is a beast.

    Phoenix Heart, doesn't really have much better alternatives imho. It can be useful and you can even play it agressively the passive with the weaver in regular maps. Not that bad I think.
  • Wildfire Smolder becomes immune to control effects during Heart of Flame.
    Situational? I used that when Ogres still stunned and it would become a problem, now I did not use it yet but I think it might be great on avalanche and frostbite.
  • If you constantly need mana, you shouldn't choose Mana Mister, you should choose longer duration for rift shards

    Feeling Frisky is actually harmful for new people, as it minimizes the death effect and make people think dying isn't much of an issue

    You can either stay close to secure souls, or you can take a weaver to secure souls. Why waste a weaver for something that can be done by positioning yourself correctly?

    Playing aggressively doesn't mean you will die a lot. Generally speaking it's really hard for heroes to die by sustained damage. Most of time heroes die from burst damages, in which case should be the result of wrong positioning, not due to aggressive or passive playing style.
  • JuicyJuicy Member, Master Founder, Early Access
    If you constantly need mana, you shouldn't choose Mana Mister, you should choose longer duration for rift shards

    Feeling Frisky is actually harmful for new people, as it minimizes the death effect and make people think dying isn't much of an issue

    You can either stay close to secure souls, or you can take a weaver to secure souls. Why waste a weaver for something that can be done by positioning yourself correctly?

    Playing aggressively doesn't mean you will die a lot. Generally speaking it's really hard for heroes to die by sustained damage. Most of time heroes die from burst damages, in which case should be the result of wrong positioning, not due to aggressive or passive playing style.
    I'd like to remind that not everyone plays the game relentlessly and is hardcore.

    some people don't want to be tied to their mini-rift. I lay mine in killboxes personally.

    That's the point - it does make death a non-issue. In fact, you can probably use it to secure par times. Go kill yourself in front of a wave, speed em up, then kill em in your killbox. Point being, this one is interesting and has different applications. Plus, midnight is super squish. Get hit by the wrong ranged projectile and she's down to 8 lives.

    Casual playing? Throw a jar and chase down the one kobold that got past you? Etc. - while it isn't the upgrade I usually pick, it is the one I pick on occasion.

    I like smolder resisting CC. While yes it was more useful in siege, it has its uses here. As for the respawn ones, some people really like that trait as it lets them play more aggressively knowing they have a second life.
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  • Smolder:
    Phoenix Heart Reduces the cooldown of From the Ashes by 60s.
    Resilient Increases health and mana returned by From the Ashes by +100%.
    pretty much like Midnight, who would choose these weavers?
    I use this one.
    Sometimes I die on purpose with Smolder, Because from the ashes knocks back all the minions and deals damage. Very useful on gates of thrudvic and other maps. We need to start thinking that "from the ashes" is an extra smolder move, Her Ultimate.
  • ProtoZealottProtoZealott Member, Early Access
    Most of them I do agree are useless, except 2, sort of. I usually take kindred souls on Blackpaw along with the +1 summon, not because it's good, but because it's the only aggressive pick. All the other options are defensive, on a character that's already next to impossible to die on (at least when you're overleveled anyways). so even if it's only +0.5% more dps, it's still more damage, and thus a faster run (by like 0.2 seconds, woo!). That said, I wouldn't mind seeing this replaced with an actual aggressive pick that isn't terrible, or just have the damage upped by a % of Blackpaws attack when they're summoned.

    The other one not to be underestimated is tough old man. I'll be honest, I just don't enjoy playing Cygnus, well I use to not enjoy it with the typical build. Then a quest wanted me to get kills with his rift, so I tried a full rift build with him, faster summoning, rift attacks, Cygnus takes less damage, and I gotta say, it was actually pretty fun and strong. You can summon the rift quick enough to basically do it in the middle of a wave, and then hold your ground with Cyg. While I'd never pick it as an endless option mind you, it does actually create a different playstyle with the character, which is something I'd like to see more weavers capable of doing.
  • lulzrawrlulzrawr Member
    I can't speak for some of the weavers you mentioned, but some of Smolder's less-used weavers seem to help a lot in Endless mode where her close range dragon breath ability is not as useful.
  • rayleiraylei Member
    edited April 8
    I agree 90% with Terry. Oziel needs some clarification.



    For Kindred Souls, the AI for the gnolls makes me not want to use this at all sometimes. Also, does +15 scale with in-game level or our account levels? +15 is really insignificant against 10000+ health point trolls( i am talking about wave 20 here not wave 100) in endless. In the normal game, this weaver might help, but other two choices are way better.

    For Mana Miser, maybe eliminates the mana cost of voltaic charge throughout the game instead? B)

    For Tougher Old Geezer, maybe gives teammate damage reduction would be better? That would be very useful in endless. #PoorIvy #OneshotCyclopes#TwoshotOgres#Playersmustlive

    For Diamond Armor, I don't think it is so helpful, too. I feel 20% extra health isn't that much for survival.  How many extra shots can a hero take from archers or Ogres?
    I wonder if the formula for calculating the damage is different for this "shield" buff. Or, it is simply a temporary buff that gives us extra health point?

    Feeling Frisky: Maybe make this weaver more has to do with the myth that a cat has 9 lives? 

    Sharing the Shadow: make minions in Sabotage mode, enter Prowl too? B)  


    For Oziel:

    I have two questions:

    Spiritual Connection: Does it recover or give additional mana as a bonus?

    Consecration: do we get extra a soul stack if we a kill minion with Oziel himself, while the minions is on Hallowed Ground with this weaver?


    Pheonix heart: Maybe make the blast from From The Ashes a lot stronger and make the From The Ashes cooldown longer to make this weaver more suitable for Survival Mode? It is about "survival" overall.
    Or, give Smolder a small and cute phoenix with her?  B) 

    Resilient: Maybe Increases MAX health, instead of double the recovery. So, she can keep up the aggressiveness by having more sustains, and not by intentionally kill herself? 
    Or, maybe move the current version of WildFire to this tier (tier3) and called it Resilient?


    For WildFire,  I feel if we want to keep this as it is, it shouldn't be a T4 weaver. I believe the reason for being t4 was because immunity to CC was strong in PvP? Maybe Sabotage mode can make this trait worth it to be a T4 weaver again. (Disclaimer: I am not implying Sabotage mode is a PvP mode).
    Wildfire is dangerous, maybe make minions burn permanently, it is more suitable for it to be a T4 weaver too. 


    Sabotage hype! Illidan doesn't have enough skulls?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gTX2tyZUIw

    WE ARE NOT PREPARED!!!!!

    Post edited by raylei on
    So this is how we add small words under our post/comments.
  • RandreRandre Member, Master Founder, Early Access
    I will list some weavers that I think don't make sense to me. Hope devs could have a look into them.

    Blackpaw:
    Kindred Souls Increases damage dealt by Blackpaw's spirit gnolls by +15.
    super high mana cost for a very short duration, why would anyone rely on spirit gnolls to deal damage? a pathetic +15 damage is nothing.


    Cygnus:
    Mana Miser Eliminates the mana cost of Voltaic Charge when Rift Lord is active.
    when rift lord is active, the mana cost of voltaic charge can be recovered ANYWAY, plus who will spam voltaic charge instead of chain lightening while rift lord is active?

    Tough Old Geezer Adds +50% damage reduction to Rift Lord.
    Why would anybody use Cygnus to tank damage?


    Dobbin:
    Diamond Armor Grants allies that use Mineshaft Shortcut a temporary shield worth 20% of their max health.
    This is a siege weaver, why is it still here in pve?


    Midnight:
    Feeling Frisky Reduces Midnight's respawn time to 1.5s.
    Choosing this weaver is like taping a big "I suck at midnight therefore I need this weaver to survive" tab in the forehead, I can't imagine why would anyone choose this. Health generation is much more useful.

    Sharing the Shadow Activating Prowl causes allies near Midnight to also enter Prowl for 5s.
    This weaver will stop whatever your allies are doing and force them into stealth, thus making it a great troll trick when you are aiming for high team combos. But for serious gameplay? no benefit at all. It would be great for siege, but not for pve.


    Oziel:
    Consecration [[Soul Harvest always generates soul stacks from deaths on Desecrated Ground.
    so...devs expect us to throw down a jar and somehow magically rush to the other side of the map with his slow speed so that he could benefit from soul harvesting from both locations at the same time?

    Spiritual Connection Oziel gains +5% of his max mana when he damages a Haunted enemy with Vampiric Slash.
    really? Not to mention the long cooldown to be able to haunt minions, recover mana? for oziel? lol?


    Smolder:
    Phoenix Heart Reduces the cooldown of From the Ashes by 60s.
    Resilient Increases health and mana returned by From the Ashes by +100%.
    pretty much like Midnight, who would choose these weavers?

    Wildfire Smolder becomes immune to control effects during Heart of Flame.
    Very good weaver for siege but useless in pve
    Hello All,

    Just my two thoughts

    Blackpaw: I consider the spirit gnolls to be a terrible ability so by extension anything that buffs it is a waste of time. 

    Cygnus: I am happy to say i have used Miser to great effect...once...when i messed up my build....on one specific map....it is basically a skill for newer players have have mana issues with Cygnus as it lets them use the rift to refill their mana when they exhaust it all. And to be fair all of the skills at that level for Cygnus are very sub par.

    In reference to Tough Old Geezer has anyone picked something other than Ornery Oldtimer? Because i have not.

    Dobbin: I think Diamond armor would be much better if the mineshaft generated an aura that gave a defense buff. Although that might be stepping on the toes of Stinkeye.

    Midnight: I agree i don't really understand the point of those weaver upgrades.

    Oziel: Clarification on would be helpful. I assumed it generated an extra soul stack. Probably can just go and run a test and find out for certain. If it generates and Extra soul then i think it is good. otherwise not so much.

    As for Spiritual Connection....i totally forgot this was a thing.

    Smolder: Phoenix Heart actually has a use in my mind. Since Smolder does do damage on the revival you could in theory burn all your mana, die then revive and burn it all again. To i promote that tatic, no but it is a valid one. 

    Wildfire i have nothing for. It was a PVP skill that was great but until there are enemies that stun it is not very useful. 

    Bionka: Queen of Speed is a skill i just cant wrap my head around. I feel like if you have to move somewhere fast as Bionka you did something wrong and burning an an unchained to do it seems harsh. 

    Gabriella: This might just be me but has anyone actually managed to get Loving Glow to work? It seems to require an unlikely level of co-operation to pull off. Or am i missing something

    Those are all that i can think of right now.

    Thanks all,
    Randre
  • Kindred Souls? That's what I always take. Because everything else is worthless. More healing? You take T4 weaver to heal. No jump mana cost? Trifles. +15 base damage that scales with everything(acc level, battle level) - makes Gnolls much deadlier.

    Mana Miser - agree. I usually put up a shard at ~75% mana, glue my LMB down and press RMB on cooldown. I end up at 100% mana. No idea what's the point of this weaver.

    Tough Old Geezer... are you crazy? That's also almost baseline upgrade. With it, you become practically immortal near the shard. You can tank, you can survive anything. In easier maps, with support - yes, 15% more damage on large enemies would make sense, but the weight of benefit on this weaver is MUCH more.

    Diamond Armor - is the single upgrade of T3 that makes sense. It's the 8k drop that hardly makes sense, while dynamite upgrade is pretty much for solo. Diamond Armor is a huge boost for co-op on top of the existing Dobbin bonuses.

    Feeling Frisky is almost mandatory for new Midnight players. Not everyone has Enjoys Pain and 100500 account level. Those around 20, playing in Co-op, will find that their 1.5% health per second gives them pretty much ZERO benefit. While instant respawn - means they can always dive, do their job and not be afraid to be locked out.
    However, with the addition of enemies speeding up on hero death, this weaver might indeed lose value. Unless they somehow ignore Midnight's deaths. It certainly was a good weaver before this mechanic(which makes little sense).

    I'm not sure about Sharing the Shadows, but just like Max's AoE Can't Touch This, I'd assume this weaver is great for groups. If everyone can drop aggro and stun their target every few seconds, it would add a whole lot of potential for difficult situations. It's not like other Midnight T4 weavers are that good.
    Then again, if Prowl doesn't make other people stun enemies - I take back my words and pretty much agree.

    Consecration... yes. And no. See, a beginner, who doesn't know how to use Oziel that well, might at least try to land a jar and get the eff away. This weaver allows him to get some benefit.

    Spiritual Connection is great for Vexing Surge builds. Allows less time spent on converting.

    Smolder... yes, agree.



    To be honest, if there was a character that, I believe, is TOO linear - it's Max. Almost everyone else I've played has some kind of variability in weavers, but Max?... He might have a choice on T4, but a tiny one.

    T1:
    Accuracy, really? He is a spammer, not nuker, like Gabriela.
    +3 gold per second? For most games, that's like +2-3k gold, maybe 5k tops. With his cheap traps and in fights where you'd get 5k - you probably won't need coin so much.

    -80% AoE slow during Can't Touch This? Hell yeah! Turns him into a wall for "everything", even Swiftyhooves.


    T2:
    Stun radius could kind of make sense, but mostly he stuns either key targets, or killboxes. Increasing the size would only make enemy stacking more difficult. Plus shorter stun makes it much less useful.
    Movement speed after CTT? Why? To escape? Just move in advance...

    1.5x more damage on his burster is good against bosses, against oneshotting targets. If you can kill a bigger target, you inevitably contribute to secondary AoE.

    T3:

    2% healing per kill? Pointless when you actually can kill stuff. Useless when you are only scratching things.
    +35% more damage to stunned targets? Gee, could be useful if you pair your stun and snipe, but even that is much more far-fetched than a previous tier upgrade.

    +700% damage reflection? Makes enemies kill themselves by hitting you. Regardless of their level(even bosses can kill themselves).

    T4:

    Okay, here you can either extend CTT to allies, or have extra slow utility or just extra solo damage. That's a versatile tier.

    But in general, if Max in your party does not snipe things, does not slow\tank\tank-kill enemies, but only tries to stun and stay alive - he is WORTHLESS. Gabriela is linear, Blackpaw is linear, but both can shift a few upgrades and still be good or at least useful, their character remains. Max? If he doesn't take a single upgrade path, he is a deadweight.
  • chaoteachaotea Member
    The midnight 1.5 seconds is really useful btw. Ive been taking it as my main choice. 1.5 is virtually nothing, and means you can fight till you die, and consider it a free TP to the base.
  • rayleiraylei Member
    chaotea said:
    The midnight 1.5 seconds is really useful btw. Ive been taking it as my main choice. 1.5 is virtually nothing, and means you can fight till you die, and consider it a free TP to the base.
    If you look at the patch notes for the incoming patch, I believe it is not a going to be good thing to practice all the time.
    So this is how we add small words under our post/comments.
  • ProtoZealottProtoZealott Member, Early Access
    ShadeDev said:
    We need to do another heavy pass on weavers.  The system was designed for Siege and we need to do more to make your in-game choices more dynamic.

    I have discussed some possible reworks with designers in the past.  One idea is to add primary and secondary effects to weavers:
    - Reduces the cooldown of Bull Rush by 20% and increases it's damage against burning enemies.
    - Increases the damage of "In Your Faces" and changes its damage type to arcane.

    The idea here is to have different levels influence your choices more heavily, which in turns influences your playstyle.

    One thing I noticed is that dobbin's sandstorm damage is now based on account level. With that precedent in place, it would be nice if you added that to all weaver values that add a flat number, like the above mentioned ghost gnoll damage. Even if it's only a bandaid fix, it would make some picks feel a lot less lackluster.
  • Warcracfter4Warcracfter4 Member, Early Access
    ShadeDev said:
    We need to do another heavy pass on weavers.  The system was designed for Siege and we need to do more to make your in-game choices more dynamic.

    I have discussed some possible reworks with designers in the past.  One idea is to add primary and secondary effects to weavers:
    - Reduces the cooldown of Bull Rush by 20% and increases it's damage against burning enemies.
    - Increases the damage of "In Your Faces" and changes its damage type to arcane.

    The idea here is to have different levels influence your choices more heavily, which in turns influences your playstyle.

    Could we possibly get some parts along the lines of in your face in terms of ability idea.
  • HypovolemicHypovolemic Member
    edited April 15
    ShadeDev said:
    I have discussed some possible reworks with designers in the past.  One idea is to add primary and secondary effects to weavers:
    - Reduces the cooldown of Bull Rush by 20% and increases it's damage against burning enemies.
    - Increases the damage of "In Your Faces" and changes its damage type to arcane.

    The idea here is to have different levels influence your choices more heavily, which in turns influences your playstyle.

    This is an interesting idea, but I think it would work better if weavers were pre-selected traits instead of chosen during the match. I find it awkward for hero behavior to change significantly throughout the course of the match. It introduces too much complexity.  For example, if Max's "In Your Faces" was going to do arcane damage, then that's a decision I would want to make when selecting my loadout so I can decide to bring more arcane traps.

    Regardless, I'm totally in favor of more interesting weavers. I just think the more interesting they are, the less sense it makes for them to be temporary in-match decisions.

    (You could even do both... Have flat stat/ability bonuses be in-match upgrades and have a separate pre-match weaver system for more interesting hero customization.)
  • JuicyJuicy Member, Master Founder, Early Access
    ShadeDev said:
    I have discussed some possible reworks with designers in the past.  One idea is to add primary and secondary effects to weavers:
    - Reduces the cooldown of Bull Rush by 20% and increases it's damage against burning enemies.
    - Increases the damage of "In Your Faces" and changes its damage type to arcane.

    The idea here is to have different levels influence your choices more heavily, which in turns influences your playstyle.

    This is an interesting idea, but I think it would work better if weavers were pre-selected traits instead of chosen during the match. I find it awkward for hero behavior to change significantly throughout the course of the match. It introduces too much complexity.  For example, if Max's "In Your Faces" was going to do arcane damage, then that's a decision I would want to make when selecting my loadout so I can decide to bring more arcane traps.

    Regardless, I'm totally in favor of more interesting weavers. I just think the more interesting they are, the less sense it makes for them to be temporary in-match decisions.

    (You could even do both... Have flat stat/ability bonuses be in-match upgrades and have a separate pre-match weaver system for more interesting hero customization.)
    While I'm not against pre-picking (as a solo player, I don't have an issue with it at all) - I feel like that complicates team play a bit more. Half because now that's something else you're picking while gearing up, but also because what if my teammate switches his 3 arcane traps to fire right before we start? I didn't have time to change. It's the kind of thing that in game you could go "Well, he uses a ton of dragon lances.. so maybe I should go arcane" as compared to "Well, he brought 3 arcane traps but has only ever laid one". The more stuff that becomes pre-match, the harder it becomes to coordinate with random people. Personally I like it, but I also play solo 95% of the time, and just duo with Sciz (who pre-coordinates with me) the other 5%. So it wouldn't really affect me.
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