A question once again

Slygorthethird · July 15

In future, will we be seeing more reskins of minions? Cause like im totally cool with that, it gets a bit dull fighting the same horde of pirates and frost grunts over and over.
Some new minions would be nice too but at this point I am willing to take ANYTHING.

ShadeDev · July 15

There will be new minions.

Kirrr · July 15

@ShadeDev Will we have "flying minions"? Something can fly over barricades, jump down then run to the rift, or some kind of birds that can pick up an orc, fly over, then drop it behind killbox

ShadeDev · July 15

Kirrr said:

@ShadeDev Will we have "flying minions"? Something can fly over barricades, jump down then run to the rift, or some kind of birds that can pick up an orc, fly over, then drop it behind killbox

The unreal engine isn't as nice to us as we would like when it comes to flying minions. However, it's a common request and one we would like to oblige. It's on our list for "sometime in the future".

Idontevenknow · July 15

I'm a little surprised that stilt orcs don't walk over barricades to kind of emulate flying minions while also still remaining as minions that are melee-friendly.

vrmlbasic · July 15

As cool as flying minions are in OMD2, OMD2 didn't have heroes who are melee-only.

There was also better gear available to deal with them, in particular a piece of gear that gave any character a better version of Cygnus' Chain Lightning.

yobbobear · July 15

@vrmlbasic and don't forget the archer guardians

Benroads · July 15

I think the removal of flying minions was a good change overall. Even more so now that there are a large number of melee characters that would be forced to use one of the not so great trinkets to deal with them. Also many of the maps in OMD2 have specific lanes meant for fliers and they would likely have to redo a large number of maps to work them in.

yobbobear · July 15

@Kirrr

Flying minions would force melee characters to play the game a certain way. If you took gear to compensate you are already at a loss due to the fact you can't use it as fast as an auto attack. It would also require mana use, and typically melee heroes have less mana than a ranged Mage type hero. This also means the loss of one gear slot compared to a ranged hero.

If there was a platform or low spot on the maps where you could melee attack the fliers, this means you would be restricted to that spot (or close to it), which is another restriction ranged heroes would not have. The same would apply if there was an operable environmental crossbow etc.

If you took a specific trap to compensate, you are then disadvantaged by one less trap slot, loss of cash, trap cap space, and still can't guarantee it would kill all fliers. Again none of these disadvantages apply to a ranged hero.

Some me people complain now that you are forced to play maps a certain way (eg have to kill at spawn to get five stars). Imagine the complaints of you had all of the above restrictions.

RuneScaper · July 16

@yobbobear

I agree, I mean personally I would love flying minions but I don't see how they could fairly implement that. As @ShadeDev mentioned it's on their list for 'sometime in the future' I presume that means, they can see people want that, they want it themselves, but unless they can find a way to fairly implement that it's not going to be a possibility + on top of that as he mentioned the unreal engine isn't fly-creature friendly

I guess when it comes down to it, if it does ever materialize, then the fairest way may be increased damage to melee only characters against ground targets, and obviously increased damage to range characters against flying targets. Sounds like a lot of work.

ProtoZealott · July 16

yobbobear said:

@Kirrr

Flying minions would force melee characters to play the game a certain way. If you took gear to compensate you are already at a loss due to the fact you can't use it as fast as an auto attack. It would also require mana use, and typically melee heroes have less mana than a ranged Mage type hero. This also means the loss of one gear slot compared to a ranged hero.

If there was a platform or low spot on the maps where you could melee attack the fliers, this means you would be restricted to that spot (or close to it), which is another restriction ranged heroes would not have. The same would apply if there was an operable environmental crossbow etc.

If you took a specific trap to compensate, you are then disadvantaged by one less trap slot, loss of cash, trap cap space, and still can't guarantee it would kill all fliers. Again none of these disadvantages apply to a ranged hero.

Some me people complain now that you are forced to play maps a certain way (eg have to kill at spawn to get five stars). Imagine the complaints of you had all of the above restrictions.

While we're at it, could we remove runners, sappers, and elementals. These enemies force me to play the game a certain way and change my killbox around in this puzzle action tower defense game. Should probably remove weekly challenges too, it takes too much effort to think of a way to win that isn't mindlessly mashing myself against the minion.

Benroads · July 16

ProtoZealott said:

yobbobear said:

@Kirrr

Flying minions would force melee characters to play the game a certain way. If you took gear to compensate you are already at a loss due to the fact you can't use it as fast as an auto attack. It would also require mana use, and typically melee heroes have less mana than a ranged Mage type hero. This also means the loss of one gear slot compared to a ranged hero.

If there was a platform or low spot on the maps where you could melee attack the fliers, this means you would be restricted to that spot (or close to it), which is another restriction ranged heroes would not have. The same would apply if there was an operable environmental crossbow etc.

If you took a specific trap to compensate, you are then disadvantaged by one less trap slot, loss of cash, trap cap space, and still can't guarantee it would kill all fliers. Again none of these disadvantages apply to a ranged hero.

Some me people complain now that you are forced to play maps a certain way (eg have to kill at spawn to get five stars). Imagine the complaints of you had all of the above restrictions.

While we're at it, could we remove runners, sappers, and elementals. These enemies force me to play the game a certain way and change my killbox around in this puzzle action tower defense game. Should probably remove weekly challenges too, it takes too much effort to think of a way to win that isn't mindlessly mashing myself against the minion.

If they added flying minions to certain maps you'd just be at a huge disadvantage unless you were playing a ranged character. They're interesting conceptually but just wouldn't work in this game unless they had really major changes. Comparing something like runners/elementals to an enemy type which only half the characters could consistently deal damage to is laughable at best.

Bloodess · July 17

I like idea of flyers, but flyers have lot of stuff around.

First thing with flyers we should determinate what flyers would be.
A ) something ordinary for example 50% of wave made by flyers,
B ) something just annoying keeping you awake for example 5% of wave,
C ) something special like bombers, bosses and mercenaries?

B and C is something easy countered by ranged heroes right now, but A create problem with traps

traps vs flyers

We have barricade skippers - hunters and gnolls but they dont count rift point loss. Only Swifty as boss have not as close as possible to flying enemies experience. And he have huge impact on game play. And he is affected by all traps he is going around, imagine flyers going around and not trigering most of them. So they would be mostly on heroes to kill. Also we lack of traps again flyers. Yes we have ballistas but they are already too much powerfull. They would become must pick agains flyers. As you can see there is trap problem also. This would lead to 1) of flyers, I have to pick this 2) I have balistas i dont care 3) (no place for usefull trap) och crap i have to shoot them by myself.
There is lot of problems with maps them selfs since most of them lack of celing. So flyiers would request some traps and map adjustment - quite lot of work.

mele vs flyers

as mentioned by yobbobear, there would be certain disadvatages playing mele hero agains flying enemies. So lets do some brainstorming, how it would be possible to solve it.
(+plus,-cons)
1) trap - stacinary balista/flak cannon: you go there stand on it and attack with gained ranged attack what you see in air.
+easy to use
+easy to develop
-there would have to be some kind of restriction to not use it on ground units
-trap slot
-no money no trap
-you have to do int in specific slot, imagine your only possible slot is overhelmed by wave and you cant use it

2)trait-big jump: you would be able to jump higher - something like blackpaw jumps
+you could use your mele attack
-mess with hero mobility design
-short attacking window

3) redesign steam vent: it would hold heroes in air so they would be able attack flyers
+you could use your mele attack
-no money no trap
-it would take ground space

4)map specific solution - map implemented sort of stuff (stationary canon/barrel catapult)
+no money/slot requirement
-map would not be universal , you would not be able to pick any map and send anything
-huge restriction how to play and how to deal with treat

5a) hero ranged ability buff - most mele hero have some kind of ranged ability. Those abilities would be conditionaly buffed - for example : hoggard - if you hit flying enemy with your axe your cooldown is reseted and half mana returned. or you do exta X% dmg if you hit flying enemy
+no trap/trinket slot
-it would require some skill to use, because if miss with your ability condition would not be triggered
-mele heroes would become ranged

5b) additional hero ranged ability buff - go futher in buffing your ability additionaly to cd reduction and mana refund, - mele heroes ability would put flyers down temporary, something like I damaged you wing passive so anytime you dmg flying enemy he would fall down so you would able to kill him.
+-similar to 5a
+it would feel like mele hero attack
-hard to balance to still be fair challenge

6) Tinker guardian - he would provide you with temporary buff/trap or anything come to your mind that would help you against flyers
+i dont care about guardians much, is if i have to sacriface one, its ok for me
-guardian slot

X) some discarded idea:
double/triple jump, griper,temporary levitation

Those options could be analyzed better and there are others. I personaly prefer 5b but 5a and 6 is ok too. Other option feel like giving something up since I am mele and not ranged. What do you like? How should mele counter flyers?

JoshuaKurayami · July 17

I think the best option which would cause very little backfire is to use melee-ranged fliers. Both sides will have to get very close to actually attack each other.

Bloodess · July 17

JoshuaKurayami said:

I think the best option which would cause very little backfire is to use melee-ranged fliers. Both sides will have to get very close to actually attack each other.

But with that you would not need flyers, you could create minions imune to floor traps and jumping over baricades.

DaTeddyBear · July 17

I think you either need to design maps around having flying minions.

Or have them fly closer to the ground (about the height of a trolls head). So then most heroes can reach them but not dobbin.

RuneScaper · July 18

@Bloodess Some of those ideas are actually very good to counter some of the issues with flyers. I mean the ground ballista should have been obvious but I forgot all about those.

Ground ballista is a thing on OMD2 (I think it's 2 anyway, long time since I played 1 or 2) but the detail in those games are quite different, But the base for it is there, I'm sure some of that stuff could be salvaged.

(It was just an environmental trap from what I remember, the player would interact with the ballista and manually shoot it)

vrmlbasic · July 18

OMD2 had the Archer Guardian that could be placed anywhere though, the fallback solution for fliers for when the Chain Lightning gear, or Gabriella's ranged skills, weren't cutting it.

...the more I reminisce about OMD2, the more I realize that Max, Gabriella, and (to an extent) Cygnus have regressed in terms of their capabilities. Are they handicapping themselves just to give these new orcs a chance; fighting with half their magic tied behind their backs, just to make it fair?

A question once again

Comments

traps vs flyers

mele vs flyers