Boulder Chute and Icicle Impaler - Does trap height matter anymore?

hoosurjustinhoosurjustin Member
edited September 10 in General Discussion
I know there is a base damage of 200, but does trap damage as trap height increases or was that removed? I recall reading something about changes to these traps, but I'm not 100% sure if height has any effect on damage anymore. The tooltip and video regarding those traps still show/say damage increases as height increases, but can someone confirm definitely? Thanks!

Comments

  • TimeMasterTimeMaster Member, Early Access
    Yep, it was changed, no extra damage anymore.
  • If anything, they should keep the base damage @ 200, but have it increase using the past formula based on trap height. That way, it's actually interesting and viable to use in certain situations. 

    Also, if it's not based on trap height anymore, maybe update the tooltip and video.
  • sashimiaksashimiak Member, Moderator, Robot Entertainment
    Thank you for pointing this out hoosurjustin, I have passed it along to the team.
    German Community Manager
  • xciencexcience Member, Early Access

    recently I revisited traps I don't use very much and both these traps caught my attention. there is already limitations on who can use these traps because of the necessity to have a ranged attack just to trigger them.

    my solution to actually make them fun and usefull is to keep them shootable but to just give them a trigger range like all other traps but make it very short. In that way if something is thrown on them or a steam trap is used you could set them off.

    then you could reinstate the ranged damage if you like. honestly I would just like an ice option for the ceiling that I can use in some functional way with my ice characters.

  • hoosurjustinhoosurjustin Member
    edited September 12
    To keep this trap situational better than the pounder, keep the 200 base damage but reinstate the trap height bonus damage. 
    That way, boulder chute and icicle impaler can be situational much better than other ceiling traps. This would also encourage more build diversity as well based on specific maps.
  • xciencexcience Member, Early Access

    i see no reason to not make it so that if something is thrown all the way up to the trap to where it touches it for it not to go off. even if the trap never has any trigger length to it there is already some ability for traps to reset if things are thrown onto them and it would be great if it was build in since it has to pressure plate spot. bionkas knockup,  and steam traps would instantly see some love in low ceiling areas. meanwhile if someone placed it very high past the height which steam trap operates it should do bonus for the characters lucky enough to be able to shoot it.

    I get that this is meant to add unique flavor to the game by making it a shootable trap. Its just not worth it at all now that it does no bonus damage for height. As it stands now I will not be giving any skulls to this trap or using it at all because its simply to hard to use, the ice one has no synergy with the ice chars because you have to use a skill on them which will just flat out do more if you hit enemies directly with them, and because you have to babysit it its damage should be huge if its at high heights or average if its triggered in some physics based killbox.

    You will not encourage any diversity by simply making it do more damage by making it height dependent. You will however bring more diversity by making it triggerable if something is thrown on it because that opens up other options and usefulness to traps and abilities that already provide vertical knockup.

    if you cant tell by this point that I really want to use these traps but feel crappy that I cant ....

  • ShadeDevShadeDev Member, Robot Entertainment, Early Access, Apprentice Founder, Featured Developer
    xcience said:

    i see no reason to not make it so that if something is thrown all the way up to the trap to where it touches it for it not to go off. even if the trap never has any trigger length to it there is already some ability for traps to reset if things are thrown onto them and it would be great if it was build in since it has to pressure plate spot. bionkas knockup,  and steam traps would instantly see some love in low ceiling areas. meanwhile if someone placed it very high past the height which steam trap operates it should do bonus for the characters lucky enough to be able to shoot it.

    I get that this is meant to add unique flavor to the game by making it a shootable trap. Its just not worth it at all now that it does no bonus damage for height. As it stands now I will not be giving any skulls to this trap or using it at all because its simply to hard to use, the ice one has no synergy with the ice chars because you have to use a skill on them which will just flat out do more if you hit enemies directly with them, and because you have to babysit it its damage should be huge if its at high heights or average if its triggered in some physics based killbox.

    You will not encourage any diversity by simply making it do more damage by making it height dependent. You will however bring more diversity by making it triggerable if something is thrown on it because that opens up other options and usefulness to traps and abilities that already provide vertical knockup.

    if you cant tell by this point that I really want to use these traps but feel crappy that I cant ....

    When we changed it, we made it just always deal the maximum damage.  It's a guaranteed buff, not a nerf.
    Doug Houserman
    Robot Entertainment | Lead Balance Designer
  • hoosurjustinhoosurjustin Member
    edited September 12
    @ShadeDev Yes, i believe that was a change in the right direction; however, I'm suggesting taking it one step further by increasing the "maximum" damage potential the trap has based on trap height. If 200 damage was meant to be the MAXIMUM damage, then it simply pales in comparison to other ceiling traps.
  • ShadeDevShadeDev Member, Robot Entertainment, Early Access, Apprentice Founder, Featured Developer
    edited September 13
    @ShadeDev Yes, i believe that was a change in the right direction; however, I'm suggesting taking it one step further by increasing the "maximum" damage potential the trap has based on trap height. If 200 damage was meant to be the MAXIMUM damage, then it simply pales in comparison to other ceiling traps.
    It deals 200 damage with each wave, so 600 damage total.

    The dps output to cost ratio is what matters.  In that regard, it's close to the highest damaging trap in the game...  Right next to quarter pounder. 

    That being said, there are other factors to consider, such as the ceiling space needed, range, and manual activation.
    Post edited by ShadeDev on
    Doug Houserman
    Robot Entertainment | Lead Balance Designer
  • yea it def does a lot of dmg and its actually a slight DoT, not just a burst.

    Right now tho I still think the dps to cost ratio is still weak because of the other factors such as manual activation and limited ability to activate it for melee heroes. Coin isnt the only cost.  I agree that its just not worth my time when I can have other traps that I set and forget.  The dmg increase is barely noticeable and the freedom to focus on other tasks helps optimize the teams overall dmg.  Focusing on a single trap leads to less efficient hero play and overall dmg suffers, despite the trap having high dmg.  I dont feel it has high enough dmg to compensate for its other downfalls.
  • yea it def does a lot of dmg and its actually a slight DoT, not just a burst.

    Right now tho I still think the dps to cost ratio is still weak because of the other factors such as manual activation and limited ability to activate it for melee heroes. Coin isnt the only cost.  I agree that its just not worth my time when I can have other traps that I set and forget.  The dmg increase is barely noticeable and the freedom to focus on other tasks helps optimize the teams overall dmg.  Focusing on a single trap leads to less efficient hero play and overall dmg suffers, despite the trap having high dmg.  I dont feel it has high enough dmg to compensate for its other downfalls.

    Exactly. Damage to cost ratio isn't the only factor of importance here. The opportunity cost of triggering a trap vs. attacking the enemy should also be considered.
  • So I wonder just how much more use this trap is getting after the "buff". 
  • xcience said:

    i see no reason to not make it so that if something is thrown all the way up to the trap to where it touches it for it not to go off. ...

    If you are consistently getting minions thrown into the ceiling, you would be better off putting a shock zapper there.  $.02
  • xciencexcience Member, Early Access
    edited September 19
    xcience said:

    i see no reason to not make it so that if something is thrown all the way up to the trap to where it touches it for it not to go off. ...

    If you are consistently getting minions thrown into the ceiling, you would be better off putting a shock zapper there.  $.02

    not if I want to use ice traps with my ice characters. which have a hard time trigging the trap to begin with.


    @shadedev. I get that the damage at 200 was a buff. It was a buff to see if people would use it if it just did max damage. But its still sucks. it sucks simply because it has no synergy with characters that are iced based. giving it some functionality to where you could at least use some physics traps to set it off would help it out tremendously. I would use it in a heart beat in that scenario even if you lowered its damage. At any rate it makes sense if something literally bumps it should be set off.

    edit: Give it a bullseye that is shown on the trap or ground below it and allow us to hit the bullseye on the ground with mele would probably solve this problem as well. at least bloodspike, midnight, blackpaw, bionka, could use it as well.

  • some melee are worse than others with these traps.  And the thing is melee heroes arguably get the most benefit from it as they are able to clear themselves and get a lil breather to heal or let cds reset.

    For example, Temper has a directional jab that you can aim at the boulder chute to trigger it, his uppercut also hits upwards so even when aiming at the minions ( as long as youre not aiming down) will still hit the trap.  Hogarth or a midnight are stuck with horizontal swings no matter what. Of course this is only an option on low ceilings; med or high ceilings, gg.
  • BloodessBloodess Member
    edited September 20
    yea it def does a lot of dmg and its actually a slight DoT, not just a burst.

    Right now tho I still think the dps to cost ratio is still weak because of the other factors such as manual activation and limited ability to activate it for melee heroes. Coin isnt the only cost.  I agree that its just not worth my time when I can have other traps that I set and forget.  The dmg increase is barely noticeable and the freedom to focus on other tasks helps optimize the teams overall dmg.  Focusing on a single trap leads to less efficient hero play and overall dmg suffers, despite the trap having high dmg.  I dont feel it has high enough dmg to compensate for its other downfalls.

    Exactly. Damage to cost ratio isn't the only factor of importance here. The opportunity cost of triggering a trap vs. attacking the enemy should also be considered.
    As many of you said, this traps have low effect. Just remember those build-in-map manual trigger traps, how many of you use them and how many of you forgot them and rather fire at enemies. ,,Lost opportunity,, is nice term. And every cooldown you dont manual trigger it, you lost potential dmg that auto traps do. And we only speaks about line you are on, and what about lines you cant be presented? Isnt better to have one ceiling trap that can be everywhere?

    So if devs think that we should have manual triger traps (I would like to see numbers of builded traps) that it should have big impact, even if cost would be increased, since you will not build 10 manual traps - you would not shoot enemies, just trigger traps :) .

    Bring big numbers, slow down recharge, increase cost, limit max number of traps, make it worthy of my time necessary for activation. It would be cool it those traps do dmg and create temporary wall/baricade similar to tundras. Ice could do some big freezing.
    xcience said:

    edit: Give it a bullseye that is shown on the trap or ground below it and allow us to hit the bullseye on the ground with mele would probably solve this problem as well. at least bloodspike, midnight, blackpaw, bionka, could use it as well.


    I like the bullseye idea, my favorite hero is Midnight and trying to set off this traps is like kid trying to reach cookies too high for it.

  • Or, make it so triggering one of those traps automatically triggers the ones next to it, if they're right next to each other with no gap in-between (and they're not on cooldown, of course). Then you could place a lot of them and trigger a huge chain reaction just by shooting one, which would make the trap both powerful AND fun to use. Then the fact you need to trigger the trap yourself would actually be beneficial, since you'd want to launch the chain reaction exactly at the right time.
  • Or, make it so triggering one of those traps automatically triggers the ones next to it, if they're right next to each other with no gap in-between (and they're not on cooldown, of course). Then you could place a lot of them and trigger a huge chain reaction just by shooting one, which would make the trap both powerful AND fun to use. Then the fact you need to trigger the trap yourself would actually be beneficial, since you'd want to launch the chain reaction exactly at the right time.
    Interesting idea and it would be fun to watch, but I am not sure how practical it would be. It would depend on if you mach the speed of minions with chain trigger of traps. We have minions with different speed so you would never get best results. If you trigger too fast or instant, you would waste traps and create big window for all traps. Too slow and minions would out run it. And if you thing about long line full of minions, you would ether way lost focus on first minion.  
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