Brimstone + Fire Cracker discussion

cyberfailzorcyberfailzor Member
edited November 12 in General Discussion
I'm wondering why so many people use these traps, let's just recap their current stats for the sake of it, shall we?

BRIMSTONE

Cost: 1500
Range: onCollisionEnter/1square
Charges: 5
Charge's recharge time/each: 7.6s (38s total)
Damage: 30 x 4s x2.44t7: 293 per charge: 1465
Damage/full recharge: 39
Damage/full recharge/coin cost: 0.026 damage per second per coin spent

FIRE CRACKER

Cost: 500
Range: onCollisionEnter/3x0.5squares
Charges: 5
Charge's recharge time/each: 7.6s (38s total)
Damage: 14 x 4s x2.44t7: 137 per charge: 685
Damage/full recharge: 18
Damage/full recharge/coin cost: 0.036 damage per second per coin spent


Now let's compare'em with Grinder, another "Charges" trap

GRINDER

Cost: 1350-20%part: 1080
Range: onCollistionStay/1square
Charges: 20
Trap reset: 15s
Damage: 54x2.44t7: 132 per charge: 2635
   {May not be relevant:
   Damage/full recharge: 176
   Damage/full recharge/coin cost: 0.163 damage per second per coin spent}
Damage/full recharge+time to consume every charge (charges are consumed every 0.65s presumably, not every mob hit, so 13s): 94
Damage/full recharge+time to consume every charge/coin cost: 0.087


Now, I understand that Fire traps generate more coin with their effects and their damage can get boosted by naphtha sprayers, and they behave like lesser Spike Traps after their initial burst (MUCH lesser), but seriously, isn't there too much difference considering Grinder deals much more damage for much less coin? (a crippling 1500coin with a prohibitive cooldown)

I think Brimstone and Fire Cracker are meant to be towards the end of killboxes as to allow it to recharge and burst when needed.

Is this trap even worth considering? I think it's amongst the lowest damage dealing traps in the whole game.

I don't think even Trap-resetting heroes like Gabs, or the Gnome kit (gear) could make these traps viable, especially when you could compare'em to Scorcher as a "combo primer".



Post edited by cyberfailzor on
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Comments

  • ShadeDevShadeDev Member, Robot Entertainment, Early Access, Apprentice Founder, Featured Developer
    There was no change to brimstone.  It was a text fix.
    Doug Houserman
    Robot Entertainment | Lead Balance Designer
  • ShadeDev said:
    There was no change to brimstone.  It was a text fix.
    For real? oO I thought the charges were suddendly depleting too soon when I tried'em out back then... I guess I'll change the title and some parts then.
  • SemiFantasticSemiFantastic Member
    edited November 11
    I don't think it makes sense to compare a FLOOR trap to a WALL trap. The aim of the game is to kill minions fast. So use every trap you got and place them properly. You don't need to worry about how "bad" brim/cracker is cus it can't really replace grinder since it's a... wall trap, and brim and cracker are... floor traps. They occupy different places. You can't place brim on a wall so obviously you can use grinder there, and grinder can't be placed on the floor, so obviously you place a floor trap like brim. Place them together in the same spot and you kill a lot more efficiently.

    It makes more sense to compare a wall trap to another similar wall trap. Like the Wall Charger trap does more burst damage than Wall blades and arrow walls. If most of your wall traps are of similar level and you want a good burst damage wall trap to use, obviously you would pick charger. 

    You should also consider parts that increase damage on burning enemies. So put that on a grinder and a brim next to it or one block over. So the grinder will deal even more damage if a burning enemy passes by them.
  • cyberfailzorcyberfailzor Member
    edited November 12
    I don't think it makes sense to compare a FLOOR trap to a WALL trap. The aim of the game is to kill minions fast. So use every trap you got and place them properly. You don't need to worry about how "bad" brim/cracker is cus it can't really replace grinder since it's a... wall trap, and brim and cracker are... floor traps. They occupy different places. You can't place brim on a wall so obviously you can use grinder there, and grinder can't be placed on the floor, so obviously you place a floor trap like brim. Place them together in the same spot and you kill a lot more efficiently.

    It makes more sense to compare a wall trap to another similar wall trap. Like the Wall Charger trap does more burst damage than Wall blades and arrow walls. If most of your wall traps are of similar level and you want a good burst damage wall trap to use, obviously you would pick charger. 

    You should also consider parts that increase damage on burning enemies. So put that on a grinder and a brim next to it or one block over. So the grinder will deal even more damage if a burning enemy passes by them.
    Patronizing people for not knowing any better is a bad start man... I'm saying that Brimstone and Firecracker are literally the lowest damage dealing traps in the game and if you read my post you'd know they are 3 to 6 times inferior to Grinder, not just "lower", I was just comparing them to a similar trap, want me to put the numbers of Cursed Ground up there on my post? It's just extra work but trust me, it doesn't change the fact that Brimstone and Fire Cracker are simply inferior (many times) to anything out there.

    Did you even bother checking the numbers of other traps?
    Post edited by cyberfailzor on
  • I do have to admit the brimstone and fire cracker have a much lower power level than other traps, so switching to the scorcher was the best thing to do on my point of view, plus it's physical ability to knockback light ennemies is really useful.
    Both traps should have more charges and a much faster charge's recharge time in order to be able to burn more ennemies, since the trap gets really quickly useless when not reloaded by an ability or a gear (trap gets black and minions can cross safely),
    and the trap is obviously too expensive for what it actually accomplish, if there's a justification for such a price i need to know it.
  • Brimestone and Firecracker don't necessarily have to be compared to damage traps. By laying them down regularly you can create a path along which Trolls can't regenerate because they're constantly on fire, with the damage ticks increasing in power from each different fire trap they cross.
    Being able to pop down a cheap Firecracker every six squares after your killbox exit can help with kobold and troll leaks.
  • They are one of the few traps that also can be quite useful in Sabotage to damage hidden/invisible minions to make them become visible.  I agree it would be nice if the traps didn't spend so much time as useless floor decorations though.
  • They're good for consistency, which is nice against kobolds.  Also good for setting off burning resonators and heat activated traps.

    Wall traps and ceiling traps tend to be stronger than floor traps in general, by the way.  This is likely to balance out how much more restrictive their placement is.
  • cyberfailzorcyberfailzor Member
    edited November 13
    So, I went ahead did some math and came up with this Efficiency Tier List for damage traps (I did round up some values):
    C builds might be slightly less efficient than portrayed because I'm not sure whether I gotta multiply the base CD by 1.15 or divide by 0.85, I did the first.

                   
    Charging Spring=A
    Double Spring=B
    Short Spring=C

    discount+recharge coil=BB Roller A
    2x20%recharge coil=BB Roller B
    2xdiscount coil=BB Roller C


    FLOOR



    Ice Vent C        0.21       damage per second per coin spent
    C.Ground C        0.2
    S. of Arctos C        0.2
    S. of Arctos A        0.19
    S. of Arctos B        0.18
    Scorcher C        0.18
    Scorcher A        0.17
    Summoner T.        0.17
    Scorcher B        0.16
    Ice Vent A        0.15
    Ice Vent B        0.14
    F.Spikes C        0.14
    F.Spikes A        0.13
    F.Spikes B        0.12
    C.Ground A        0.11
    C.Ground B        0.09
    Ice Shard C        0.08
    Ice Shard A        0.08
    Ice Shard B        0.07
    F.Cracker        0.04
    Brimstone        0.03


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    WALL


    Arrow Wall C        0.68
    Arrow Wall A        0.66
    Arrow Wall B        0.59
    Spitfire W. C        0.35
    Spitfire W. A        0.34
    Spitfire W. B        0.3
    Arcane BB C        0.2
    Arcane BB A        0.18
    Arcane BB B        0.15
    Grinder    C        0.13
    BB Roller C        0.12
    Wall Blades C        0.11
    Wall Blades A        0.1
    Wall Blades B        0.09
    Grinder    A        0.09
    Grinder    B        0.08
    BB Roller B        0.08
    BB Roller A        0.07
    W.Charger        0.06


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    CEILING



    L.Rod C            0.39
    L.Rod A            0.39
    L.Rod B            0.35
    Mace C            0.32
    Q.Pounder C        0.3
    Q.Pounder A        0.29
    Mace A            0.27
    Q.Pounder B        0.26
    Mace B            0.23
    Pounder C        0.16
    Pounder A        0.15
    Pounder B        0.14
    Overload C        0.14
    Haymaker C        0.13
    S.Zapper C        0.13
    Overload A        0.12
    Haymaker A        0.12
    S.Zapper A        0.12
    S.Zapper B        0.11
    Haymaker B        0.1
    Overload B        0.1
    C.Ballista C        0.04
    D.Lance C        0.04
    D.Lance A        0.04
    D.Lance B        0.03

    This is:
    Assuming Charge-traps other than Brimstone consume a charge every 0.65s no matter the amount of minions on it (like Grinder), would have to test.
    Assuming Arrow Wall and Spitfire Wall's projectiles pierce.
    Assuming Arrow Wall hits with at least 60% of its arrows.
    Assuming Spitfire Wall hits with at least 30% of its arrows.
    Accounting for Ballistas to fire at least twice at a single minion going through the killbox.
    Assuming the trap runs Stamped Parts when possible, except Summoner Trap which is always more efficient with Subsidized Parts.
    Assuming Summoner Trap attacks every 1.5s and doesn't run out, as it should, just use Gnomish repair Kit, it's meant for that trap.
    Assuming Cursed Ground's warm-up time is per trap, not per minion.
    Not accounting for Arcane Debuff.

    Didn't account an average number of minions per square, instead decided to divide by said average (3 minions when crowded) Ballistas' and Ice Shard's efficiency instead of multiplying it for every other trap, this also means that more minions= less Ballistas, Ice Shard and Brimstone/Fire Cracker efficiency (Because their charges go out on contact instead of a fixed duration per charge); just as I multiplied by Nsquares affected larger-range traps where Arcane BB's just 3 squares (as other Arrow traps), Saw of arctos is 2, Scorcher 4 and Haymaker 4.

    You might notice some Traps don't appear to be listed with different builds even though they could, this is because, when rounded up, some traps displayed pretty much the same efficiency; also, I'm only considering a Short Spring build for C.Ballista because, let's be honest, who'd rather spend 1800, or 2250 over 1260 coin on a trap that's only important when spammed as its value goes up against single targets?

    Double Spring builds' efficiency goes up when crowded, while Short's go down, so do take that in account.

    So, to sum it up, Brimstone is indeed the least efficient trap in the game and literally ANYTHING is better than placing it.




    Post edited by cyberfailzor on
  • BerninhellBerninhell Member
    edited November 13
    Did you get the Short Spring and the Double Spring mixed up?  Because I don't understand your list with C (Short Spring) which penalizes cool down rates (makes traps refire more slowly) doing more damage than traps with B (Double Spring) which makes traps more efficient (significantly decreases refire rates).

    Also, would appreciate if you added Arcane Phaser to your list to see where it stacks up vs other floor traps.  Cheers.
  • cyberfailzorcyberfailzor Member
    edited November 13
    Did you get the Short Spring and the Double Spring mixed up?  Because I don't understand your list with C (Short Spring) which penalizes cool down rates (makes traps refire more slowly) doing more damage than traps with B (Double Spring) which makes traps more efficient (significantly decreases refire rates).
    They are more efficient because they cost that much less coin to place, tho my calcs might be slightly off because, as mentioned: "I'm not sure whether I gotta multiply the base CD by 1.15 or divide by 0.85, I did the first."

    Double Springs may generate more combos with time to balance out, ofc they deal more damage, but they can get expensive indeed when first placed, not to mention that the coin I may have saved with Short Springs would allow me to place extra traps thus resulting into more combo coin gain right from the start.

    Also, Double Spring builds' efficiency goes up when crowded, while Short's go down, so do take that in account.
    Post edited by cyberfailzor on
  • cyberfailzorcyberfailzor Member
    edited November 13


    Also, would appreciate if you added Arcane Phaser to your list to see where it stacks up vs other floor traps.  Cheers.
    It's about 0.31 but, that's assuming you could instantly replace it and let's be honest, it's the main problem with this trap, also, appearently, resetting it with skills or Gnomish kit destroys them after a second.
  • Uses of Brimstone:
    Combo Coin:
    As well as dealing damage to minions equally it pays for itself in the long term with combos. So the cost is an investment for the long term. If you don't believe me then just watch OrcsMustGetHigh on twitch his combos are a perfect example of what i'm on about. He gains thousands of coins in a single wave using brimstone, floor scorchers, fire arrow walls, naphtha sprayers, web spinners and ballistas.

    Endless: Since in endless coin is useless why don't buy the highest damage floor trap.

    NameDamageRe-Fire RateCoinAve TargetsRangeSpaceMax Charges
    DPSDPS/Coin **DPS/# Targets ***
    Cursed Ground *120151500311x120
    8.000.5324.00
    Brimstone12091500311x110
    13.330.8940.00
    Ice Shard1306.525011.5x.5N/A
    20.008.0020.00
    Fire Cracker56950031.5x310
    6.221.2418.67
    Floor Scorcher1248.41000331x1N/A
    14.761.4844.29
    Flip Trap17012.7600111x1N/A
    13.392.2313.39
    Arcane Phaser1107250111x19
    15.716.2915.71
    Floor Spikes1607500111x1N/A
    22.864.5722.86
    Ice Vent*100201500512x230
    5.000.3325.00
    Boom Barrel250N/A30021.5x.51
    N/AN/AN/A
    Saw of Arctos19011.41000314x.5N/A
    16.671.6750.00
    Here's a great great chart I stole from https://www.omdu-stats.com/traps developed by TillingSaturn. Go over there he needs some support.

    He has based it on average number of targets to try and explain different trap rooms
    So in this chart we would use saw of arctos but it's dodgy so use fire traps.

    Heat Trigger: Since the heat trigger is so good and since brimstone can be used with in so why not?
    Adds a 10% chance for the trap to reset if burning minions are nearby, regardless of the traps' cooldown state. Non Fire traps can't be used with it.

    Frost Maps: Since fire traps deal 50% more damage to ice minions it would be dumb not to use brimstone on these maps.

    In conclusion brimstone has its uses like every other trap.

    p.s. Could you tell use what floor trap you would use instead
  • Looks like TillingSaturn needs to update his calculations as Brimstone only has 5 charges, not 10.
  • cyberfailzorcyberfailzor Member
    edited November 13


    Heat Trigger: Since the heat trigger is so good and since brimstone can be used with in so why not?
    Adds a 10% chance for the trap to reset if burning minions are nearby, regardless of the traps' cooldown state. Non Fire traps can't be used with it.
    Brimstone doesn't slot Heat Trigger, or Triggers in general as far as I know.

    Also, its refire rate definitely isn't 9s, check your game not outdated online stats.


    p.s. Could you tell use what floor trap you would use instead
    I did mention it, in fact, Scorcher, just scroll up.

  • To be honest, most traps have their use in different situations in regards of placement / trap limit / CT modifier / minions / maps. Simply say one trap is superior than the other IS MEANINGLESS, I can just assume you are not grasping the core of this game.

    Sure grinder can do more dmg than Brim, but you really need a specific environment for the use of them, and this might be significantly limited by other factor like "Par Time", "CT modifier", and you need at least tar and cades to make grinder work. Meanwhile Brim / crack have loads of other useage people mentioned a lot above, esp. the combo point and HAT/fire resonator DaTeddyBear mentioned.

    The only trap you can compare is Wall Charger V.S. Wall Blade, but again, although Wall Charger can do more dmg BY IT SELF, Wall blade has longer reach, can do more dmg when sync with Debilitation resonator, and much cheaper.

    Also, in terms of short/double/charging Spring, more traps are NOT necessarily mean more Combo/killing, instead, you can put only certain amount of traps in a sufficient kill-box , slowing the re-fire/refill rate definitely HURT the efficiency of the kill-box.
    Short Spring is best used in short re-fire rate traps that you can spawn while not hurt the efficiency of the kill-box/ trap counts, such as Ballistas. Or when you have expansive modifier on CT. Special mention BGH.Ballista, since it do dmg based on max HP, 2 BGH.Ballistas are much better than just 1.
    Double Spring is good for cheap traps with longer re-fire rate, such as wall-blade/ floor spike/ ice shard/ lighting rod/ push trap/ flip trap, even floor scorcher situational
    Charging Spring is a safe choice since it not hurt either the cost nor the re-fire rate.


  • Also, would appreciate if you added Arcane Phaser to your list to see where it stacks up vs other floor traps.  Cheers.
    It's about 0.31 but, that's assuming you could instantly replace it and let's be honest, it's the main problem with this trap, also, appearently, resetting it with skills or Gnomish kit destroys them after a second.

    This might be a bug to be reported, it should just use a charge, not be destroyed
  • sashimiaksashimiak Member, Moderator, Robot Entertainment
    Thank you guys for catching the gnomish repair kit + phaser bug! I've passed it along to the team and they'll get it fixed ASAP.
    German Community Manager
  • KenBear said:
    To be honest, most traps have their use in different situations in regards of placement / trap limit / CT modifier / minions / maps. Simply say one trap is superior than the other IS MEANINGLESS, I can just assume you are not grasping the core of this game.
    Numbers can't lie, also, starting off patronizing people for not knowing any better isn't too good...

    KenBear said:
    Sure grinder can do more dmg than Brim, but you really need a specific environment for the use of them, and this might be significantly limited by other factor like "Par Time", "CT modifier", and you need at least tar and cades to make grinder work. Meanwhile Brim / crack have loads of other useage people mentioned a lot above, esp. the combo point and HAT/fire resonator DaTeddyBear mentioned.
    So, you can just pop Brimstones wherever with no limits considering it's a 1500 coin trap?
    Combo point uh? This means you're using it at the start of your killbox, which also means it's spending most of its time on cooldown anyway, doing nothing to said combos for a grand total of 1500 coins, and it won't do much while actually activating because it deals less damage than traps that work similarly to how you'd want to use it.

    Isn't Scorcher a much better HAT primer? It hits 4 squares, deals the same damage but can slot HAT itself, has similar cooldown on builds A and B, it's even cheaper, not to mention that it can grant up to 3 combo points: fire+throw+combo generator(which it can slot).

    KenBear said:

    The only trap you can compare is Wall Charger V.S. Wall Blade, but again, although Wall Charger can do more dmg BY IT SELF, Wall blade has longer reach, can do more dmg when sync with Debilitation resonator, and much cheaper.
    They literally share the same range, the listed amount in Wall-charger's description refers to the number of squares it occupies, they deal the very same amount of damage, Debilitation Resonator's useless on Wall Blades since only subsequent physical hits would be affected by it, also -50% armor means 100 (100% armor)/1.50=33% more damage, if anything you'd need Grinder to use the generator properly, which means you're still using it in very specific killboxes, but I digress, since I DID mention on my post that I wasn't considering generators or triggers etc...

    On a note, Lightning damage causes killed minions to explode and deal aoe damage scaling on hp/damage (devs never confirmed which one).
    KenBear said:

    Also, in terms of short/double/charging Spring, more traps *DO* NOT necessarily mean more Combo/killing, instead, you can put only certain amount of traps in a sufficient kill-box , slowing the re-fire/refill rate definitely HURT the efficiency of the kill-box.

    Special mention BGH.Ballista, since it do dmg based on max HP, 2 BGH.Ballistas are much better than just 1.

    Charging Spring is a safe choice since it not hurt either the cost nor the re-fire rate.
    Look, if you had your doubts about the numbers you're free to go ahead and do them yourself, on a note I'll spend the time to actually quote myself:

    Double Spring builds' efficiency goes up when crowded, while Short's go down, so do take that in account.

    BGH Ballistas clearly state that they can only target 1 minion each so I can't really see how 2 are better than 1 in every situation.


  • 1. Numbers can lie as my post proved.

    2. Comparing the brimstone and floor scorcher it is clear that from the numbers in game that the scorcher is clearly better than brimstone in nearly all circumstances. But i'm not here to prove that brimstone is best just useful.

    3. Brimstone can still be used since two floor scorchers just apply the same effect twice and they can't stack. Neither stacking damage or combo so putting more than one facing the same place is a waste. In trap room you will probably need another trap to place. So v. tar and floor scorchers won't make a good trap room by themselves. So brimstone would make a great addition.

    4. Just looking at the Brimstone working it is clear that 0.13 charge regen is wrong. Since just looking at it and counting for 7.8 seconds it is clear that it fires more than once.
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